Degree versus Certifications

[RaleTheBlade]

I live in an area where finding a quality CS education is nearly impossible. I began going to a small community college to get my AS degree in CS but decided to drop out because they ticked me off. Someone in their administration department must have a screw loose because before classes even started I missed my first day because the letter I received from the college stated that classes started today (8/19) when in reality, they started on Monday (8/17). That was the last in a long list of screw ups by the college that led to me rethinking my education strategy.

My question is this: How would an array of certifications in similar fields of IT (hardware engineering, embedded systems development, Microsoft.NET, Silverlight) stack up against an AAS or BAS degree in the technical field?

I ask this because I am in a position where I cannot move (got a family you know :) ) and the only college around here that has anything close to what I want to do only offers an AS degree in CS, but they cant seem to get their heads out of their butts enough to AT LEAST tell people when classes start.

I could go off naming many other reasons why I refuse to go to that college, such as my history instructor having awful grammar or my "Introduction to Computers" (which is utterly absurd that I have to take that) instructor doesn't know that Monday was the 17th and not the 18th, but Ill spare you the ridiculousness of it all. Lets just say that if these people cant even tell me when classes start, I don't want them telling me how to do my job. So... degree versus certifications? How well would they stack up?

EDIT: I also have 2+ years of actual field experience in C#, WPF, and Silverlight ( < 1 year exp there) so that may help me a bit too I suppose...

[darwen]

I don't know what the market is like where you are, but in the UK it's nigh on impossible to get a programming job without a degree.

It's the piece of paper which gets you into interviews. Once in the interview, you have to demonstrate you have the necessary knowledge to do the job - which you've probably got already. You just need the piece of paper.

However a degree in any mathematical subject will do. Have you considered doing a maths degree ?

Darwen.

[RaleTheBlade]

I have thought about pursuing other degrees but have been mainly looking for one that pertains to what I do so I can at least get some applicable knowledge out of it perhaps. Although the AS program at this school is pretty much the basic of the basic (the most advanced class they have in programming is introduction to Java) it would still be good to have and I could use it to transfer. But why is there the big gap between certs and a degree? If certs seem so "worthless" then why are they there? I would think that having certifications in a particular field of study would be similar to having a degree... Just certifications didn't cost you your first born son to acquire.

And I know that some people can take tests and pass by making educated guesses... but, isn't that similar to college anyway? At least certifications show you have the drive and motivation to study on your own time without an army of instructors holding your hand the whole way there. And college isnt always a guarantee of having knowledge either. I remember in my CSS class a few years ago we had a quiz every week and a test every four weeks. The thing was... you could retake them as many times as you needed to. But the major hitch was, and get this... that you could just go through and randomly answer and "fail" the quiz or test and it would GIVE you the correct answers at the end. Then just go back and put in the correct answers given at the end and boom... instant A+ without breaking a sweat.

Employers put way too much emphasis on a slip of paper versus actual skill these days... Its kind of dangerous I think.

[PeejAvery]

From my personal experiences and those of friends of mine, degrees can help, but usually mean nothing when you have actual experience. Unfortunately, 2 years is kind of small in programming experience.

[darwen]

Employers put way too much emphasis on a slip of paper versus actual skill these days


You have to bear in mind when someone wants to employ someone to do a job, they have to be able to be reasonably certain they can DO the job.

Also employers don't want to waste time interviewing dozens of applicants for one job - they want to narrow the field.

Here's where the degree comes in. It says something about you personally. It says that whatever else, you've had the intelligence and dilligence to complete a degree.

And when you have little or no commercial experience (so they can't ask your previous employers) this is pretty much all an employer has to go on except for the interview - which is a very short space of time to make a determination of someone's competance, especially when employing junior staff.

However as you go through life and your career progresses you may find not having a degree will be detremental. I work in the financial sector at the moment and every job advertised requires a degree (or higher !).

Please bear this in mind before making judgements about employers. They have their requirements when hiring too - and believe me if they get it wrong it can be a big headache to them !

Darwen.

[RaleTheBlade]

Ok... so its been basically narrowed down to needing a degree to get anywhere in this field. Now the BIG problem is, where? I live in an area where I cant really get one, the only school which offers anything is JWCC and they only offer an AS in CS and Ive already been going around in circles with them and their poor curriculum and the way the place is run. I just cant bear to spend money and time on an education that is rather lackluster in comparison to most other places.

Ugh, I wish I was able to finish at ICC. But... life changes and what not have put me in a tough position. I find certifications as basically the only way I have to showcase my skills and to learn more. I would think they would account for something if you were applying for a job.

[darwen]

Can't you do your degree from home ? There's an organisation in the UK (called the Open University) which allows you to get a degree but learn from home from course literature, TV programs and the internet.

It also means that you can work whilst studying.

Darwen.

[RaleTheBlade]

Can't you do your degree from home ? There's an organisation in the UK (called the Open University) which allows you to get a degree but learn from home from course literature, TV programs and the internet.

It also means that you can work whilst studying.

Darwen.

We have things like that here but they're usually degree mills and not fully accredited alot of the time. University of Phoenix online and Devry just to name a few. Ive decided to stick with JWCC for now and try to grind out my degree there as much as I am wary of the educational quality. At least itll be something, right?

And Darwen, your lucky you live in the UK, you guys have alot better educational system over there from what Ive heard. Everyone's always "Oh, the US is great" No... no... it tends to be sort of overrated alot of the time. Especially our educational and healthcare systems. But then again, Ive found that self-education is alot of the time the best education for you. You just dont get anything to show for it :(

[dglienna]

Should have been able to figure out that if you're taking a Monday Class, it is the 17th, not the 19th. Unless there was something special about that particular class, but it doesn't sound like it.

A piece of paper can never hurt you, be it a certificate, or a degree. Grin and bear it.

[RaleTheBlade]

Should have been able to figure out that if you're taking a Monday Class, it is the 17th, not the 19th. Unless there was something special about that particular class, but it doesn't sound like it.

A piece of paper can never hurt you, be it a certificate, or a degree. Grin and bear it.

Thats exactly what Im doing. I dropped all of my classes except my history course, its a whole new school with a whole new environment and I want to be able to figure it out at my own pace preferably. That and were going to begin the planning stages of our next major revision for our product lineup so Im going to be slammed for the next few months. I will take more classes next semester.

[HanneSThEGreaT]

I work at a college, and honestly speaking, I can't blame you for dropping out :)

As a college / any educational institution, you should know when is what and who should be there :)

[RaleTheBlade]

I work at a college, and honestly speaking, I can't blame you for dropping out :)

As a college / any educational institution, you should know when is what and who should be there :)

Precisely, I despise disorganization. Especially disorganization of such an important thing like a class schedule. Thanks for the advice guys :)

[Brad Jones]

A little late to the thread, but I'll comment with my opinion....

As to degree versus certification --
You've heard people saying you should get a degree. I agree. If you apply for a job in the typical ways, then the human resource department, recruiter, or other screeners will most likely eliminate your application/resume right off the bat for not having a 4-year degree. Not having a 4-year degree is simply a way to filter out people and most organizations do. In one of my previous positions, when I was hiring, I had to explicitly ask HR to give me all resumes to avoid having things such them filtered in such a way.

As to certifications - again, as has been indicated. They are nice, but (in development) they are generally used to again choose between candidates with equal experience and qualities. They aren't necessarily going to be what gets you in the door.

Can you get a job without either? Yes, but you better have some hard core experience, and as others indicated. that is generally more than 2 years unless that two years is *exactly* what a company is wanted.

To be honest - dropping out of school, not wanting to finish, grumbling about a Monday versus Wednesday start day.... these are all things that if an interviewer heard, they would drop you in a heart beat. The value of a four year degree is that it also shows the ability to focus and dedicate yourself to something as well as shows that you've worked in a structured environment. It is the life lessons that most four year degrees teach that many employer find valuable as well.

I've found in my career that it is the ability to adapt and adjust to things that helps people exceed and succeed. There always seems to be a wrong date or a moron to work with. Better to accept that these things happen and roll with them or you will have a short career that seems very long.... ;) ;)

Brad!

[darwen]

moron to work with


And we all know someone like that eh ? :D

Darwen.

[RaleTheBlade]

A little late to the thread, but I'll comment with my opinion....

As to degree versus certification --
You've heard people saying you should get a degree. I agree. If you apply for a job in the typical ways, then the human resource department, recruiter, or other screeners will most likely eliminate your application/resume right off the bat for not having a 4-year degree. Not having a 4-year degree is simply a way to filter out people and most organizations do. In one of my previous positions, when I was hiring, I had to explicitly ask HR to give me all resumes to avoid having things such them filtered in such a way.

As to certifications - again, as has been indicated. They are nice, but (in development) they are generally used to again choose between candidates with equal experience and qualities. They aren't necessarily going to be what gets you in the door.

Can you get a job without either? Yes, but you better have some hard core experience, and as others indicated. that is generally more than 2 years unless that two years is *exactly* what a company is wanted.

To be honest - dropping out of school, not wanting to finish, grumbling about a Monday versus Wednesday start day.... these are all things that if an interviewer heard, they would drop you in a heart beat. The value of a four year degree is that it also shows the ability to focus and dedicate yourself to something as well as shows that you've worked in a structured environment. It is the life lessons that most four year degrees teach that many employer find valuable as well.

I've found in my career that it is the ability to adapt and adjust to things that helps people exceed and succeed. There always seems to be a wrong date or a moron to work with. Better to accept that these things happen and roll with them or you will have a short career that seems very long.... ;) ;)

Brad!

I agree with this, I just want to make sure my money is well spent however. And this whole issue with the class schedule made me wonder if I was wasting my time and money on a college which will give me a very sub-par education or if it was just slip up. I decided to stay in the school, but if these things continue to happen, I'm going to have to look elsewhere to complete my educational goals.

And you cant tell me that you haven't hidden some of your biggest annoyances from prospective employers because they would shoo you out the door if you told them how you -really- felt, haha. I'm sure every one of us has had to deal with bull from past employers or schools but when your sitting in that big chair and a potential employer asks you "So, did you get along with everyone you worked with at your previous position?" you just put on a big smile and say "yes" because if you told them the truth you would be tightening your own noose.

I don't have a problem griping about these things here, because I feel as though its a legitimate gripe. A school should have their stuff together, especially when it is regarding a students class schedule. But it doesn't mean I'm going to drop them like a bad habit for screwing up once. If it happens again, and again, Id seriously consider it though.

As for certifications, I still plan on getting some simply because I see them as a way of staying up to date with most current technologies. And they can be studied at ones own pace. I don't see them as a substitute for a degree although I wish that were true sometimes... The tedium of having to study things like history and philosophy gets on my nerves sometimes. Especially when I have alot of paid work to do.

[davidtec]

There are lots of good reasons to get a degree, both personal and professional reasons. Maybe someone out there who is a hiring manager or technical staffing (http://www.gtssminds.com/what-we-do/it-staffing.htm) team could explain what values they add to a resume. But it depends on the person who's doing the hiring. If it's a technical minded person who is looking for someone to do specific jobs, certifications will be what you want.