Have a question about programming in general

[pruje]

Here is the deal. My dad is retired. He used to work for EDS but was laid off a while back. He hasnt really been in the computer scene since the days before Windows.

I am trying to get him back into programming, but he thinks he has been out of it so long that there would be no point. When he was programming, he was fluent in languages like Cobol, Fortran, and x86 Assembler. He also knew Basic. Those are the ones I know about....I dont know his whole resume.

I am very computer literate, but the closest I get to programming is HTML/CSS/Java scripting and some very trivial Visual basic. So I dont know where to point him to. I built him a computer which I assume will work as a programming workstation (2ghz Athlon, 1 gig memory, lots of HD space).

So I'd like to know if anyone can recommend a book that would be good for bringing him up to speed. Also, I'd like to know what else I could set him up with to get him started. He's got lots of time on his hands now.

Any help would be appreciated.

[CitizenOlek]

Hi

My name is Alex Borsuk and I'm in somewhat a similar situation as your Dad (I'm 51). I used to do programming with my Commodore 64, A86 Assembler. That beautiful old machine had a built in Machine Language Assembler, it was a blast to work with. I also learned Basic (several differing versions), C, C--, C++ and otherlanguages, similar to your Dad.

I am now making good progress with Visual Basic.Net, thanks to the free download from Microsoft, and I can offer this. Our past experience in programming is still valid! There are many new concepts to learn, but the underlying logic is still the same. Take Heart! There is a light at the end of the tunnel. I tried some books, but they didn't have what I needed so I just use the built in Internet Search feature of the VB.Net IDE whenever I need help.

Also, Forums such as this one have been of great help.

Happy programming.

[pruje]

Mostly I am looking for a good "Intro to programming" type book to get him started. If nothing else I will probably just get him a "programming for dummies" type book, but i wanted to see if anyone here had a better idea first.

[TheCPUWizard]

I would have to recommend C# for both of these gentlemen. Some very good books, free versions of the development tools. Designed to be easy to learn, and yet still extremely powerful.

[PeejAvery]

Well, first off, don't force him. If he doesn't want to learn, then it is best that he does not.

Concerning programming, there are so many languages and bases out there, you would have to give some direction as to where you would want to start. For example, you mentioned and "Intro to programming" guide. Well, not all languages are the same so that guide would be worthless unless it had a language or base in mind.

If your father wants to learn, here are a couple of good options.

C++
C#
Visual Basic .NET
Java
PHP/ASP.NET

[pruje]

Well, first off, don't force him. If he doesn't want to learn, then it is best that he does not.

He's not being forced. I just want to give him the option and convince him that it's possible. He had a heart attack a couple years ago and never fully recovered, so he's in the house a lot. I am sure he is pretty bored now. I wanted to give him something to do with his computer besides games and chat.

He also cant work because of his condition, so I thought this could potentially give him a way to make some occasional money as well. But mainly I'd just like to see him keep his mind alert. But I am definitely not forcing him. He used to like programming, and you can do a lot more today than you could in his day.

I plan on making this part of a father's day gift.

I would have to recommend C# for both of these gentlemen. Some very good books, free versions of the development tools.

I was thinking that too. I had originally suggested Java, but I dont know how difficult it is relative to C.

Can you point me to some of the free tools? I am web designer and computer tech, not a programmer. So I am not sure what I should be looking for. Can you suggest any books in particular?

Concerning programming, there are so many languages and bases out there, you would have to give some direction as to where you would want to start.

Something that would be easy for him to pick up given his background. C sounds like it would probably work.

He is just now getting comfortable with the Windows XP GUI...the last time he programmed, Windows 3 (or whatever version the original was) was just coming out. He was used to working from command lines and ASCII interfaces.

For example, you mentioned and "Intro to programming" guide. Well, not all languages are the same so that guide would be worthless unless it had a language or base in mind.

Yeah, lets go with C. Do you have any recommendations on beginner books?

Incidentally, what is the Difference between C# and C++? I always wondered that. I thought one was a newer version of the other.

[PeejAvery]

Incidentally, what is the Difference between C# and C++? I always wondered that. I thought one was a newer version of the other.
Although both are based with C, the two completely different languages. Neither is a revision of the other. They share common syntax, libraries and functionality, but are very different.

One of the benefits you will see in C# is the garbage collector. C++ does not have automatic cleanup for you. C++ is easier to learn so I personally wouldn't recommend C# over C++.

[TheCPUWizard]

One of the benefits you will see in C# is the garbage collector. C++ does not have automatic cleanup for you. C++ is easier to learn so I personally wouldn't recommend C# over C++.

Do you reallybelieve that C++ is easier to learn???

Give the similarity of constructs, and "base" language syntax, there is a pretty common starting point.

But C# has much tighter constraints on what you can do, which reduces the likelyhood of many common errors

C# allows for the complete definition of a class in a single file, so there is no managing headers and dependanciey

The .Net framework classes typically provide a much higher level of functionallity than the underlying Win32 (or MFC, or STL, or STL).


Your opinion REALLY suprises me...

[PeejAvery]

Do you reallybelieve that C++ is easier to learn???
When you ask it blanketly, I would say no! So I agree with you there. But when we look at this from the standpoint of one who has been well versed in older languages such as x86, C++, which is older than C#, would be a bit easier. In my opinion.

[TheCPUWizard]

When you ask it blanketly, I would say no! So I agree with you there. But when we look at this from the standpoint of one who has been well versed in older languages such as x86, C++, which is older than C#, would be a bit easier. In my opinion.

OK, in that context I can understand where you are coming from :wave:

Although the shift to "OOP" from straight functional and procedural programming models is still quite a leap.Remember the "agony" of 20+ year ago :lol: , lots of people had to be dragged in kicking and screaming!. I rmember managers at variaous companies having to resort to telling their workers: "Learn This"/"Do it This Way" or fnd a new job.

So something that does not "encourage" the old habits (as much) may be easier. And that's my opinion. :D :D :D :D

ps: If either of them know of a good ASR-33 teletype repair engineer, who is based in the USA (prefferably East Coast, I would like to know!

[pruje]

Ok...so it looks like C++ might be easier in the short term. So I think I'll start with that.

Does anyone have any suggestions on specific books to start with? Since I know little or nothing about real programming, I am probably going to go with the book with the coolest cover art by default.

Are they all the same or does anyone have a specific book/series they can recommend?


Also: What software would I need to get him started with? If the software is free, do you know where I can download it from?

[TheCPUWizard]

Biased Response: "Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days".

Days being a relative term, but 21 good lessons for beginners.

ps: I was one of the technical editors, so as I said..biased...

[S_M_A]

For C# : http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/default.aspx

For C++ : http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualc/default.aspx

[SuperKoko]

Mostly I am looking for a good "Intro to programming" type book to get him started. If nothing else I will probably just get him a "programming for dummies" type book, but i wanted to see if anyone here had a better idea first.

No, programming for dummies are not aimed at this type of person.
Books for dummies targets the non-technical audience who has no clue about anything relating to computers. They're really designed for dummies. Either you're a dummy before reading the book, or you become a dummy after having read it.
I had a very bad experience with Visual Basic for dummies which was clickodrom oriented and didn't taught anything useful.

Your father knows well computer internals... Fortunately, they have not evolved much.
All the concepts are still valid.
He knows the low level things. He needs to learn all the new high level concepts. OOP, service orientation. XML and related technologies... Maybe some Web development tools... Some scripting languages...

If he wants to learn C++, I suggest The C++ Programming Language, by Bjarne Stroustrup.
If he wants to learn XML... He can read a tutorial and then go to the specs, are they're short. But, he should also learn dialects, such as XSLT, SOAP, RDF, ATOM, XML schemas, XHTML.

Again, you can tell to your father that all the low level concepts he learnt are still valid.
Your father can read books which targets a technical audience... Actually, he should be able read approximatively any IT book.
Standard specifications may be a bit tough for him, but he may even read them.
... Books are written in plain english... They're supposed to be understood by everybody.

[pruje]

Again, you can tell to your father that all the low level concepts he learnt are still valid.

That is useful to know. Thanks.

Biased Response: "Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days".
For C++ : http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/e...lc/default.aspxIf he wants to learn C++, I suggest The C++ Programming Language, by Bjarne Stroustrup.


Thanks for all the help. I do appreciate it. I will look at all those books...maybe buy all three if I have the cash for it.

[SuperKoko]

If he your father learnt C, then, Thinking in C++ (Bruce Eckel) might be a good book.
Since it's freely available on Bruce Eckel's web site, your father can read the first or the two first chapters and check that it's adequate for him. In that case, you may buy the paper copy.

Warning: I've just read the paragraphs dealing with arrays: It's quite bad, but I guess that very few people can properly explain arrays.