Should chit-chat remain on-topic?

[Sam Hobbs]

Many (probably most) chit-chat discussions get off-topic and remain off-topic for many posts and often for many pages. This is reasonable for many chit-chat discussions since that is what chit-chat is, however there are many discussions that don't fit anywhere else that do have a defined topic.

It is very, very unfortunate that so many discussions get as far off-topic as they do. What happens is that people with limited time that only want to spend time on topics that interest them are unable to do that. Therefore the only people that participate in chit-chat are people with plenty of time to spend wading through discussions that most people don't care about.

There are a few regulars in the chit-chat forum that I expect to say that it is reasonable for discussions to stray off-topic. Those will be tempted to do that in this discussion. Is there anyone else that are not regulars that can comment? Do the off-topic discussions prevent you from participating in discussions you would be interested in discussing?

[SolarFlare]

Sorry Sam, I'm a regular :(, but you may still be interested in my opinion I hope!

Even in the Chit Chat forum, threads should stay on topic where possible. If someone asks a question intended to be discussed, and there is nothing left to say in regard to the discussion, then logically the discussion should cease.

There are three types of threads with this regard: on-topic, off-topic, and uncertain.

On-topic would include the thread which triggered this one, Sam's "View of Arnold Schwarzenegger from outside California" thread, which means that off-topic posts there should be considered inappropriate.

Off-topic would include Tom's "Apathy" and "Boring" threads. These clearly have no topic and are intended to encourage random banter.

Uncertain threads, as the name suggests, are unclear where the limits are for off-topic posts. This includes the "Where are we from" thread. Obviously not all the posts are about members' origins, but that does not make them inappropriate, and yet the thread has more focus than the "off-topic"-type threads. In this case, you must use your judgement.

Most of the time it should be easy for a member to determine what category a thread falls under and post a reply accordingly.

As for this thread, I certainly hope it will remain on-topic!

[Sam Hobbs]

Yes, SolarFlare, your comments are useful and relevant. Thank you. Your comments are a great start for this discussion.

[Sam Hobbs]

This is another reply to Gabriel's off-topic comment in the other thread. I now see that Gabriel is the moderator of this forum, so I must assume that his comments are official, but if this issue has never been discussed then it should be.

Is it stated somewhere that this forum is different from the other forums in the appropriateness of going off-topic? The requirement to be on-topic is being aggressively imposed in the VC forum; in my opinion, too much. I know that this forum is open for discussion of nearly anything, but does that definition also state that it is appropriate to go off-topic?

Perhaps this is not the appropriate forum. Perhaps I should have created this thread in the Feedback forum.

[SolarFlare]

I would like to add that if the thread creator explicitly requests that the thread stay on topic, then it is unreasonable to disregard this. A stray comment here or there is fine, where in programming forums it may not be, but to go several posts in a row about a different subject is a bit stupid. If you want to post off-topic, start a new thread; it's not like there's a quota for threads here.

There is a practical side to this argument. If there is a meaningful discussion about red triangles (and come on, who doesn't love red triangles), but it gets covered up by junky posts, then a post continuing on topic may be lost. People who know the thread is off-topic already may have stopped checking it.

[Sam Hobbs]

Thank you for your additional comment, SolarFlare.

I think it is relevant to say that the chit-chat forum could provide the important purpose of providing a mechanism for members to get to know each other, which can be very useful. Some people might say that the chit-chat forum is not useful but there is a need for members to be able to communicate with as few requirements as possible. It is reasonable for some threads to have a limit on the discussion because many people don't have the time to wade through irrelevant discussions.

If it is decided that chit-chat discussions can be hijacked, then I will create a thread in the Feedback forum requesting another forum for miscelaneous discussions that are defined to be topical.

[Tom Frohman]

I would like to quote solarflare from the thread

http://www.codeguru.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230116


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Xeon
Who does this face resembles most?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solarflare wrote


Why, that's Walt Disney of course! Contractor for the Egyptian pyramids and ambassador to Mars!

That picture is not of Walt Disney... let's see how long it takes this thread to go off topic!


__________________

Take that solar :)

[Yves M]

Sam,

There are two sides of the coin. One side is getting way off topic and answers being hardly related at all to the original subject. The other side is being locked in a question that people disagree with.

Your thread about Schwarzenegger starts with the premise that people are more influenced by his roles than by his real character and voting will reflect this. This was what people disagreed with (explicitly or implicitly) or commented on and hence the answers were not answering your question, but were still on-topic (the topic being Schwarzenegger running for Governour). Granted, the sub-thread about Reagan and America's involvement in the fall of the east block wasn't relevant to the subject, but it's hard to just ignore comments that you strongly disagree with.

On the other hand, galathea's post is entirely on-topic, even if it doesn't give an answer to the question.

Think about an analogy with a programming forum. Someone writes:

I am trying to sort an array of CStrings but qsort has a bug and this doesn't work correctly, I get all kinds of strange problems after sorting.

How can I fix qsort ?

Is an answer that recommends using std::sort off-topic because it doesn't answer the original question ? Is an answer that details the performance differences between introsort (std::sort) and qsort off-topic ?

P.S. If you want just an answer to a question like "Is your view of Schwarzenegger more based on his roles in movies than his real character", then post a poll. Then you will get an immediate answer to the question.

[Mick]

Originally posted by Yves M
There are two sides of the coin. One side is getting way off topic and answers being hardly related at all to the original subject. Granted, the sub-thread about Reagan and America's involvement in the fall of the east block wasn't relevant to the subject, but it's hard to just ignore comments that you strongly disagree with.


Then nobody should have brought up reagan in the first place.

Neener Neener.

[Yves M]

Originally posted by Mick_2002
Then nobody should have brought up reagan in the first place.

I think you are off topic in the current thread :D

[SolarFlare]

Originally posted by Tom Frohman
Take that solar :)
A dagger to my heart! You see, that thread was from before I became the paragon of excellence that stands before you today. Besides, it was in gray text, meaning it wasn't intended to be read. Hey Tom, why don't you tell everyone what the next post in that thread was?

But seriously, at the very least, if the thread starter explicitly requests in the first post to stay on topic, I think common sense dictates you should honor the request.

[souldog]

I think what you have in mind Sam is


Main Entry: dis·cus·sion
Pronunciation: di-'sk&-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing


But this is the chit-chat forum


Main Entry: chit·chat
Pronunciation: 'chit-"chat
Function: noun
Etymology: reduplication of chat
Date: 1710
: SMALL TALK, GOSSIP
- chitchat intransitive verb

it like water running over textured terrain. Depending on where
it starts it sometimes heads straight down a single furrow and
yet other times it endlessly divides and converges.

Stream of consciousness man.

[voidspace]

No!

It is easier to skip reading a post if u felt it is irrelavent. It might be off-topic ... but your pointing to individuals whenever they say something off topic is rude.

You yourself have 4 - 5 posts pointing people to stay in topic and that it self is off-topic ... This thread is really uncalled for

I would say you can just do a general request to "Please stay on topic" in the post and most people would respect it.:o

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Tom Frohman
I would like to quote solarflare from the threadI notice you were the first to post an off-topic photo; the photo of a chipmunk. The thread did not get off-topic much more than that until you posted the question "Wfranc, Is your avatar the state flag of Massachusetts?".

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Yves M
Your thread about Schwarzenegger starts with the premise that people are more influenced by his roles than by his real character and voting will reflect this.
Originally posted by Yves M
P.S. If you want just an answer to a question like "Is your view of Schwarzenegger more based on his roles in movies than his real character", then post a poll. Then you will get an immediate answer to the question. The following is the entire question I posted in the other thread:Originally posted by Sam Hobbs
In my opinion, Arnold Schwarzenegger gives the wrong impression to the world for a few reasons. The main rason is that people are not likely to see biographies of him but they are likely to see him in roles such as The Terminator. I am not familiar with The Terminator because it seems like the type of movie I have little interest in. Am I correct that movies such as The Terminator give a bad impression of Arnold Schwarzenegger and therefore convey the wrong impression to the world?

I think this is something that everyone in the world is qualified to comment on, at least if the have seen Arnold Schwarzenegger in The Terminator and/or similar movies. Notice that you are misquoting and misrepresenting what it says. Please, if you want to refer to what it says, please be accurate about what it says.

[Sam Hobbs]

To continue with the previous reply, note that I said nothing indicating "that people are more influenced by his roles than by his real character and voting will reflect this". Actually, my theory is the opposite; that people will not be influenced by the negative roles he has played. However I was asking for opinions from people outside the state, so how can voting possibly be relevant?

I say this to emphasize my point that I was being highly misrepresented and misquoted.

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Yves M
(the topic being Schwarzenegger running for Governour).
Originally posted by Yves M
Granted, the sub-thread about Reagan and America's involvement in the fall of the east block wasn't relevant to the subject, but it's hard to just ignore comments that you strongly disagree with.You did not have to ignore it. You could have started a new thread.

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by voidspace
It is easier to skip reading a post if u felt it is irrelavent. It might be off-topic ... but your pointing to individuals whenever they say something off topic is rude. The moderators in other forums are quick to say that a discussion is off-topic. Are they being rude?
Originally posted by voidspace
You yourself have 4 - 5 posts pointing people to stay in topic and that it self is off-topic ... This thread is really uncalled for

I would say you can just do a general request to "Please stay on topic" in the post and most people would respect it.:o You are being contradidtory. You say I should not request that a thread stay on-topic then you say that I should request that a thread stay on-topic. Or are you suggesting that I pray that people stay on-topic and that people will hear my prayers?

[Yves M]

Originally posted by Sam Hobbs
The following is the entire question I posted in the other thread:Notice that you are misquoting and misrepresenting what it says. Please, if you want to refer to what it says, please be accurate about what it says.


No Sam, I said the "premise" which means "A proposition upon which an argument is based or from which a conclusion is drawn". This does not mean that you stated this explicitly, but rather that it was implicit in your post. If you did not intend this meaning then your post was not clear, since I am not the only one who took it that way.

[Edit: actually now that I reread your post, the sentences "In my opinion, Arnold Schwarzenegger gives the wrong impression to the world for a few reasons. The main rason is that people are not likely to see biographies of him but they are likely to see him in roles such as The Terminator." are exactly that. People are more influenced by his roles than by his real character.]


You did not have to ignore it. You could have started a new thread.

That is not the way the general discussion forum has worked for the last two years. But you are right that it would have been an option.


The moderators in other forums are quick to say that a discussion is off-topic. Are they being rude?

I'm sorry, but this is comparing apples with oranges. The programming forums are more closely monitored to check whether threads get off topic since people rely on the search function to check whether questions have been answered before. The chit-chat forum on the other hand is not a forum for answers, but for chit-chat, so the stringent "have to be on topic" policy does not apply and has never applied.

from voidspace
You yourself have 4 - 5 posts pointing people to stay in topic and that it self is off-topic ... This thread is really uncalled for

I would say you can just do a general request to "Please stay on topic" in the post and most people would respect it

Sam Hobbs' answer
You are being contradidtory. You say I should not request that a thread stay on-topic then you say that I should request that a thread stay on-topic

Please ! When you nitpick you might as well choose a target which allows this exercise. Voidspace is saying that you state once that a thread should remain on topic, but that you do not make all your answers to be "that and that post is off-topic".

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Yves M
No Sam, I said the "premise" which means "A proposition upon which an argument is based or from which a conclusion is drawn". This does not mean that you stated this explicitly, but rather that it was implicit in your post. If you did not intend this meaning then your post was not clear, since I am not the only one who took it that way.

[Edit: actually now that I reread your post, the sentences "In my opinion, Arnold Schwarzenegger gives the wrong impression to the world for a few reasons. The main rason is that people are not likely to see biographies of him but they are likely to see him in roles such as The Terminator." are exactly that. People are more influenced by his roles than by his real character.]I said nothing about voting and it is clearly excluded. Any programmer is intellignet enough to understand that and when they ignore that (that I explicitly excluded voting), they are intentionally using their intellignece to ignore that.
Originally posted by Yves M
I'm sorry, but this is comparing apples with oranges. The programming forums are more closely monitored to check whether threads get off topic since people rely on the search function to check whether questions have been answered before. The chit-chat forum on the other hand is not a forum for answers, but for chit-chat, so the stringent "have to be on topic" policy does not apply and has never applied.Voidspace said that it is rude to say that something is off-topic and my reply said that it is common in the other threads to say something is off-topic.

Since you and Solraflare are both moderators and there remains a disagreement on this, I need to create a thread in the feedback forum requesting that a new forum be created in which discussions can be created and limited to the intended discussion.

Originally posted by Yves M
Please ! When you nitpick you might as well choose a target which allows this exercise. Voidspace is saying that you state once that a thread should remain on topic, but that you do not make all your answers to be "that and that post is off-topic". If I misunderstood Voidspace then say so. It is my understanding that Voidspace was contradidtory. If that is the wrong understanding then say so.

If I were to have made multiple posts requesting that the discussion remain on-topic but there had been no further off-topic posts after the first one then that would be unnecessary. However when the request to stop is ignored then it is nitpicking to say that it is unnecessary to continue to request something whenever the request continues to be ignored.

[Tom Frohman]

Originally posted by Sam Hobbs
I notice you were the first to post an off-topic photo; the photo of a chipmunk. The thread did not get off-topic much more than that until you posted the question "Wfranc, Is your avatar the state flag of Massachusetts?".
And your point is?

[Mick]

when you guys argue like this, you make baby jesus cry

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Tom Frohman
And your point is? How does the quote go? Something about the kettle calling the pot black or something like that. It appears to me that you caused that thread to get off-topic, then you criticize someone for posting an off-topic post to that thread. (I am not sure, but I think the post you refered to is more than 3 pages later.) If you were a police officer, you would be guilty of entrapment.

[souldog]

Maybe I am not Offtopic. Maybe I am just being subtle.

[Tom Frohman]

Originally posted by Sam Hobbs
How does the quote go? Something about the kettle calling the pot black or something like that. It appears to me that you caused that thread to get off-topic, then you criticize someone for posting an off-topic post to that thread. (I am not sure, but I think the post you refered to is more than 3 pages later.) If you were a police officer, you would be guilty of entrapment.

You missed my point by a mile.

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Tom Frohman
You missed my point by a mile. I think I got your point but perhaps I did not. I hope you got my point at least.

[hometown]

Originally posted by Sam Hobbs
I think I got your point but perhaps I did not. I hope you got my point at least.

Not at least, but completely, and actually he did...
Sam, Sam must know it is a holy bell !!!!!

[Joseph_R_Thomas]

well..sometimes i have to agree...i do get a little upset over the fact that sometimes some people just dont care and come and destroy you chit/chat forum thread..

like when hometown messed up my thread - my attachment..

its a very serious issue to me and i appreciate ppl like
Dr.Luz,Mr.Mick,Mr.Tom,Mr.Soloarflare,Miss.Galathaea,Mr.Souldog,Mr.M Owen and Mr.gjs368 giving me their honest opinion which was very encouraging and gave me a lot of idea because of which i did lotsa stuff..which made my life easier..

i would really like to take a moment to thank them...

but them comes in hometown and starts posting irrelevant crap on my thread...
i means its serious issue to me...i am literally in pain here..

on moments like this i do hope some stuff should be kept on the topic..:(

if you would take a look at my thread - my project...
it was goin pretty well until hometown came in and made it go the other way - off topic!
its ok..cause that was not a serious issue..it was just to thank the ppl who helped me..and i pretty well conveyed my msg in my first post...
my 2 cents:(
tks

[hometown]

Dont be like a baby Ms Geil !!! Your not under 35. :cool:

I wish no one will give ANY little 2 cents to HELP you in any thread from now :cool:

[Joseph_R_Thomas]

Originally posted by hometown
Dont be like a baby Ms Geil !!! Your not under 35. :cool:

I wish no one will give ANY little 2 cents to HELP you in any thread from now :cool:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: i am left with no words..:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[galathaea]

"Voting" was not a word used in the original post, but the background to the post seemed clearly concerned with the California vote. If not, then the entire premise for the thread was ill-specified, and topicality could not even be a concern. Schwarzeneggar's impression concerning what? His muscles? His wife? I don't see how the background of voting is anywhere off topic as a possible interpretation, and since many people have opinions for his fitness as candidate, even out of state, Yves interpretation (which was also mine) seems so completely and utterably a good interpretation of the topicality of the thread, I totally do not understand these side thread complaints.

Did I mention I like cheese? I love those little string cheese sticks. Hairy cheese! Ahh the marvels of modern science!!!

[Brad Jones]

Originally posted by Sam Hobbs
Is there anyone else that are not regulars that can comment? Do the off-topic discussions prevent you from participating in discussions you would be interested in discussing?

I am not a regular in Chit-chat because I don't have a lot of time.

More to the point, I find that almost all of the threads end up so far of their topic that they aren't worth the effort to try to follow. When you add in comments from a few people who tend to post a lot, yet post primarily noise, it makes it even worse.

So to answer your question, the off-topic discussiond do cause me to simply stay away from most chit chat threads most of the time.

I want to add one more comment. It will become more obvious who contributes value and who makes noise when 'reputations' are added in version 3 of the forum software. While I don't know when the software will be solid enough to install, I will be glad when it finally is. I believe there are a couple of people who are going to get very low reputations very fast, and I believe they may be surprised by that.

Brad!

[SolarFlare]

Originally posted by Brad Jones
I want to add one more comment. It will become more obvious who contributes value and who makes noise when 'reputations' are added in version 3 of the forum software. While I don't know when the software will be solid enough to install, I will be glad when it finally is. I believe there are a couple of people who are going to get very low reputations very fast, and I believe they may be surprised by that.
Where do I submit my resignation?

:D

[Mick]

Originally posted by Brad Jones
I believe there are a couple of people who are going to get very low reputations very fast, and I believe they may be surprised by that.

Brad!

Looking forward to that, don't know how much lower I can go, i'm already looking up at the people in the gutter....

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_R_Thomas
well..sometimes i have to agree...i do get a little upset over the fact that sometimes some people just dont care and come and destroy you chit/chat forum thread..

like when hometown messed up my thread - my attachment..You do understand my feelings and concerns. Some people consider the chit-chat forum to consist entirely of discussions with very little value, but we know we create discussions that we consider to be important. Some people seem to think that feelings such as yours expressed here are foolish but I consider them to be understandable and valid, since it is similar feelings that caused me to start this thread.

I am very encouraged that Solarflare and Brad have expressed the opinions they have. I am disappointed that not all moderators agree. If the moderators do not agree and if some of them do not comply, then we need a different forum where we can have meaningful miscellaneous discussions.

I don't know what happened in that thread but I know Nina (hometown) is concerned about it too. I looked at it about a week ago and at the time I did not understand the problem. I assume the problem is adequately explained here in general terms.

I do care about Nina and I want to help her. Perhaps this thread is helping in ways I did not realize it would. I hope Nina now understands the problem. I think it would help for Nina to just say she is sorry and that she will try to not do that in the future. I think it would help for you to deal with the problem in productive manners, which might not have been done; I don't know. This discussion is a more productive solution, right?

Some people might say that some things I have said here should be said offline from the forum (such as in PMs) but I hope this is relevant for many other people too.

[Sam Hobbs]

Originally posted by galathaea
"Voting" was not a word used in the original post, but the background to the post seemed clearly concerned with the California vote.What part of it gave the impression that it is "concerned with the California vote"? It asked for opinons from people outside the state, and what extent his movie roles infulenced that. My intent was that by asking for opinions from people outside the state, voting would be clearly excluded.

So please tell us what part of what I said gave the impression I was asking about votes, because I do want to be able to state questions in a manner that will make clear what the topic is.

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

Sam, did you see the new guideline? Any coments? Is it what you wanted?