Java vs VC++

[DHunter21]

I want to know what people feel in this age old debate?

If it has easy to compile java code to native code (and thus an exe) would this pretty much give Java the lead? I was a VC++ coder and then I found myself being forced to learn Java... now I am a complete convert. I can write code in java 4 times faster than in Vc++. Does anyone else feel like this?

Dustin

[Masaaki]

Hi.

I just doubt the comment about "I can write code in java 4 times faster than in Vc++." since Sun Java updated JVM at JDK1.2.2.
So far, many Java developer complained that Java window application runs too slow to open and execute.

Unfortunately, I didn't check JDK1.2.2 yet and I'm not sure how JDK1.2.2 is updated to overcome this disadvantage.
I try to install JDK1.2.2 at Redhat Linux 6.1 soon.

The other consideration is that we can develop Java application overcoming VC++ application.
That is, even though Java developer makes the window application on both Linux and Window,and VC++ application have better
performance, GUI design and so on, the customer uses VC++ application. This is a condition that the customer keeps using Window OS.
If the market of Window application by both Java and VC++ are mature, the quality and customer satisfaction is very important factor to
succeed the application.

As a result, I'm not sure how Java Sun will succeed in a stand alone application on Window OS.
If one company uses both Linux and Window NT, this company is willing to use Java window application since it saves much money
so that it hires only Java developer. It may neglect some quality of window application by Java.

Don't misunderstand me. I also like Sun Java, not J++.
But when I consider the above idea, I hesitate to improve my Java skill.

Regards.
-Masaaki Onishi-

[DHunter21]

I am quite serious about how fast I can program in java compared to vc++. I think java is more second nature to me, not to mention that vc++ makes things unessicarily complex.

My company decided that they wanted all programs to be able to run through a browser (I doubt that was a wise decision but nonetheless). This is a major advantage of java.

Wouldn't it be wise for Sun to design a program to compile to all native codes?? Java is all about platform independance, but what if they made it easy to make it platform dependent for all platforms. This would solve the speed issue, nes pas?

Dustin

[Masaaki]

Hi.

I may misunderstand your word.
You want to just say that you can write the code four times faster
than one of VC++ if you make the same application?

Rather, I focus on the performance of Java and VC++.

Sun CEO often says that in the near future, PC will disapper and
all application run through Internet.
In fact, this is very interesting. But, ....

As long as all people work in LAN connected to Backbone, they can use
the high speed network. But, in the home, even though we can use
ISDN, ADSL or CATV moden, we can pay more money to access it.

Internet is unstable, unreability and so on. Anytime, we are sure
that Server is down, the router is malfunction and it throws away the packet if the router is busy.

But, five years later, NC (Network computer) may be popular among us
and PC will die?

Your company success depends on how the network related company
provides us the cheaper high speed Internet Access and reliability
of Internet, I suppose.

Good luck.
-Masaaki Onishi-

[shailen]

Hi Dustin,
Java and VC++, as I think are two separate languages suited for different kind of solutions. Using Java we can't dream of developing System solutions (we have a better option - VC++). Whereas Java is best suited for web based solutions ( in VC++ hah!).
But still one thing remains there, VC++ applications are more efficient than Java's.
What do you say?
Shailen

[shailen]

Hi Dustin,
Java and VC++, as I think are two separate languages suited for different kind of solutions. Using Java we can't dream of developing System solutions (we have a better option - VC++). Whereas Java is best suited for web based solutions ( in VC++ hah!).
But still, VC++ applications are more efficient than Java's.
What do you say?
Shailen

[DHunter21]

I don't quite agree with you when it comes to java and developing System solutions (I assume you are talking about PC based and enterprise applications). I think java presents a real possibility here. Already it is much much easier to program an distributed application using java than vc++. They've kind of dumbed it down a notch because these distributed applications are become the mainstream. Granted that Java is slower to run, and has a bigger footprint in memory (these are issues that need to be resolved).

I think my problem with vc++ is that it is so full of holes. c++ is a languange thats been pieced together slowly over several years. It also confuses me why microsoft (so called inventor of MFC) chooses not to use MFC in developing any of their products, but markets it to the masses. I've experienced many bugs in both vc++ and java. The difference in how companies handle these bugs make a world of difference to me. When I encounter a vc++ bug that I can't fix, one that I know is a microsoft bug (ie not my programming) it is painstakingly difficult to find a work around of a fix from the company. My experience with java when I find a bug (and there are quite a few) is simple because sun offers a database on the bugs' progress, and offers workarounds. Hell if those don't exist, I can actually read their code and fix it myself.

Just my thought de jour.

Dustin

[Masaaki]

Hi, guys.

As I posted this site before, the customer will determine which application (on OS and Web) they use.
From a programmer point of view, if he considers that Java application is better than that of VC++.
However, since the customer perfers VC++, Java application is never sold. The programmer have to change
his language.

When we look around application, Cobol, C and the other language are still alive.
That means that the company can't change it enviorment easily.

In order to keep the job, the programmer had better watch over the customer taste.
And the programmer will select his language to create application on the customer taste.

Last, I think that Java is a key language to change the dominant OS of Microsoft.
The programmer should keep touch with Sun Java at some level.

But, the programmer can't maintain the skill of both VC and Java easily, at the same time.
This is my problem and I don't have enough time to do this.

Regards.
-Masaaki Onishi-

[Karmus]

The difference in how companies handle these bugs make a world of difference to me. When I encounter a vc++ bug that I can't fix, one that I know is a microsoft bug (ie not my programming) it is painstakingly difficult to find a work around of a fix from the company.

Actually, I think Microsoft has one of the best support sites of any company. There's a lot of information that could be found on the Microsoft Support KnowledgeBase. Well, I guess when I make more of a move towards my learning (concentrating on VC++ programming), maybe I'll see what you mean.

[cknutson]

i'm a VC++ developer, that is curious: which ide do you use for developing java? i personally own visualJ, but i don't like the way it gets in the way of using swing, etc... (you can make it work, but i don't want to "make it work").

i am trying some ide's written in java, but for the most part they run sluggish, an i'm on a 450, with 128M, which probably isn't "top of the line", but i doubt my machine is getting in the way.

craigk
cknutson@flash.net


craigk
cknutson@flash.net

[DHunter21]

Ahhh I couldn't agree with you more.

I started out programming in Visual C++ (at least with Visual programming), and I found the IDC (vc++4, 5, & 6) to be rather easy but also a big brother. I hated the fact that VC would add in code here and there when you created a new component or something, and it wouldn't exactly tell you where the code was. What this eventually led to for me, was that I could program Vc++ using one of these interfaces fine, but once I had to create something from scratch, I was up the creek without a paddle.

So when I started learning Java (only a few months ago) and used a plain-jane text editor type IDE called JPadPro which I still love. Its fast, its simple, and the only two things it does for you is to make compiling easy (so there's no dos window), and it colors in the key words. It does not write the code for you. As a result I had to learn everything. Now I am quite apt at writing code from the ground up.

I have also used Netbeans (just recently bought out by Sun). I ran it on my PII 400Mhz, 256M, NT computer and it was so bloody slow. I've noticed the same thing about visual cafe, its not quite as slow as Netbeans but its slow enough.

Dustin

[MadKeithV]

After reading the thread I kinda feel most people have missed the point of the question.

I do agree with you Dustin, as a language, Java is pure and simple.
Itcarries no legacy to previous types, as C++ does to C, something that I have run into a few times (specially using old tools).

I nearly always program in C++ due to the requirements of my job and the customers we have, and also I guess because of company mistrust of Java.
Yet, if there would be a decent java native compiler, and some good tools I'd much rather program java. Interface inheritance just plain rocks ( and no, multiple inheritance in C++ is NOT a good workaround for this, all of you who think this, have fun getting your Multiple Inheritance to work without glitches under MFC :) ).

I did a reasonable project in it over summer ( web-based, but it didn't have to be ), and it just makes so much more sense, both as a basic language AND the addons such as the event handling mechanism and the windowing classes and such.

I believe its a language worthy of a serious native implementation. ( Sorry Sun, I'm a MASSIVE unbeliever in a Network Computer )
Because its so simple you have much fewer design avenues, and it makes life easier indeed. I think I could probably code faster in Java too.

[Eddie Velasquez]

I use multiple inheritance and abstract base classes (interface inheritance) all the time with C++/MFC and a I haven't had a problem so far.
Problems with M.I. can be minimized if you don't include data in your interface classes and avoid diamond-shape inheritance hierarchies.

P.S. I won't go into the C++ vs Java debate because I think it's a complete waste of time.

[MadKeithV]

Quote:
"P.S. I won't go into the C++ vs Java debate because I think it's a complete waste of time."

Well that's what this thread was started for :).


But the problem I had with multiple inheritance in MFC is the message mapping macros, and Classwizard. We have to MI windows classes (for a very specialised project ) and it takes SO much careful planning to get the routing straight it's ridiculous.
But I suppose you'd get that problem using II under java as well;

[Eddie Velasquez]

I'm not a Microsoft basher, in general I think MS is cool, I think that most of MS bashers do it because they think it makes them look cool and smart, but... MFC is a f***king pain in the neck!
I think I understand the reasons that why MFC is the way it is, but it's a mess and a lot of people learn C++ and OO techniques from it and that is NOT a good example.
As I noted in a previous post, M.I. is not evil and it's not completly "incompatible" with MFC, but as MadKeithV notes, the message mapping macros (or hacks some will say) are very hard to get right in some situations.

[montana16]

Yes, I have found myself in a similar situation. I think Java is much easier to program. I have gone from VC++ to Java back to VC++ and wish that I never went back. My only experience with Java is that it is very slow and clanky, and I could never find a good exe compilier. Do you know of one?

[Masaaki]

Hi, Java and VC codeguru.

I'm wondering that you guys make the complicated applications like
FrontPage or MDI having four different views by Java.

The disappointed point in Java is difficult to maintain the code
at the huge application since Java can't have the header file to
show the member variables and functions.

Anyway, the programmer just writes the code by the customer requirement, and the programmer sometimes have to change the language
by the customer requirement.

Regards.
-Masaaki Onishi-

[DHunter21]

Actually I don't think any good exe compilers exist. I bought Visual Cafe 4 XE a month ago, and spent a full week working around their bugs (they don't like if you use 3rd party jar files). And then finally I got the exe to work, and it was 5 times larger and just as slow as my normal program. I did however find a program call JExpress that does not compile java into an exe but creates a small exe to load your java program (JExpress is fantastic installation program for java).

Dustin

[Kailash Marthi]

This is an interesting discussion. I think we are comparing two different animals but I learnt a lot from your posts.

I am a "fairly proficient" C++ programmer on Windows NT and Linux and have been trying hard to get started with Java. Even bought Borland JBuilder 3 Professional for my Windows NT machine.

But, I find it really hard to get around the new IDE and invariably I find myself going back to VC++ and doing it in 6 seconds.

My questions to you guys:
1. Where do I start with Java ? (I mostly deal with networking and Internet stuff)
2. How do I sustain interest ? I know it depends on me, but what is a book that will sustain interest ? I like intellectually challenging stuff and detest the "start with an example" kind of approach.

Thanks,
Kailash