Ageism

[Jim McCreary]

I think there would be some interesting discussion on "Ageism" in the

software developer's job market. There are two sides to this question.

One is the very young and the other is the older.


As an example, I will be 60 in January 99 and feel that part of the reason

my resume falls an deaf ears is that my most recent degree was in 1966.

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks." and "That guy has to be out of

date." I'm going to edit my resume to list degrees without dates, leave

out the 20 years of Fortran experience, and list only project from the last

seven or eight years. We will see if that makes a difference.


Point of honor: This is not a sour grapes comment. I am currently working

under a fairly lucrative contract for a household name high tech

corporation. In the actual workplace it doesn't make much difference that

my co-workers are the age of my children. I read a lot, study in my spare

time, and think I manage to keep pretty well up to date.

[Colin Davies]

I agree with the re-edit of your resumee, good Idea. I might do it myself.

Ageism must exist in the computer world as it does everywhere else.

Be honest no matter how broad-minded you are, you will look twice if some-body older than yourself started dating your daughter or son.

Sure you can learn new tricks, but do you learn them as fast as when you were half of your present age. I know I don't !

Experience does count. How-many of these young "visual people" can actually write in assembler or create there own compiler compared to us olddies.

Few I guess, since those skills are less required now, but when needed those are still skills very useful to have.

So I say Re-edit your resumee omit your date of birth. And get a really great Toupee.

[rick]

Man, did you hit home with that one !

I recently wrote my own compiler and debugger, complete

with on-the-fly machine code generation and I also have

more hair on my chin than on the top of my head. I would

be surprised if there's much of a market for this kind of

skill except for with the java folks who are still trying

to pull this kind of stuff off.


What I have noticed is that it seems that fewer companies

are interested in how fast you learn. They are interested

in what you know now and if is not what they need then they

are not interested in you. It is very sad but I have seen

it a lot. I personally feel that is a very short-sighted

point of view which leads to a re-staffing problem for every

new project. Note that this is coming from an American who

has to deal with companies whose sole focus is the next

quarterly financial report. My current company has a bit

different attitude but they seem to be very unique in this

respect. I guess that is why I work for them :)


Rick

[Rick]

Man, did you hit home with that one !

I recently wrote my own compiler and debugger, complete

with on-the-fly machine code generation and I also have

more hair on my chin than on the top of my head. I would

be surprised if there's much of a market for this kind of

skill except for with the java folks who are still trying

to pull this kind of stuff off.


What I have noticed is that it seems that fewer companies

are interested in how fast you learn. They are interested

in what you know now and if is not what they need then they

are not interested in you. It is very sad but I have seen

it a lot. I personally feel that is a very short-sighted

point of view which leads to a re-staffing problem for every

new project. Note that this is coming from an American who

has to deal with companies whose sole focus is the next

quarterly financial report. My current company has a bit

different attitude but they seem to be very unique in this

respect. I guess that is why I work for them :)


Rick

[Jim McCreary]

This relates to companies hiring contract workers for a project. This is where I am now. The theory is that you get in, hit the ground running, solve the problem, and get out. The company pays no benefits and expects workers to be interchangeable pieces. In theory they pay more for such instant gratification which compensates the contrator for no benefits and possible gaps between projects.


Strange case. I started the current contract for phase one of a six month project. It has now been 18 months and we just alpha released phase 2 for world wide but inside corporation testing and review. Phase 3 is kicking off and the entire team is being sent for a week of COM training (pay my hourly rate plus tuition). Do they not make me a salaried employee because they don't want me on the pension plan? Or is it just because they have had extensive layoffs and are on a hireing freeze? Local project leader sneaks me past this corporate rule because I'm just temporary. :-}>

[Colin Davies]

Are you on the right thread Jim.

However Companies breaking away from the traditions of the common Labour

market is a world-wide phenomenon in regards to the IT professions.

Good for both employees and employers ??

Probably depends on the particular case! But it is good for the industry and

economy, as higher mobilty of staff leads often to higher mobility of

knowledge.

I have been involved recently in an R&D project recently where they "treated"

there contractees similar to how you are being "treated".

In this case it was more to do with an accountant wanting to have better

Job or Project Costing figures avaialble.

The Organisation must have trippled there labour cost to do it in this manner.

But the Accountant was happy. :-)

Remember Quarter Yearly reports are important.

Maybe your situation is similar ?????


Regards

Colin

[Dick Warg]

Ah, us old guys with grey beards and grandchildren. Ya just can't get any respect these days. The other day I was talking to a young consultant who remembers reading about punched cards. I was teaching him how read a COBOL data declaration, you know, S9(7)V999 COMP-3. I asked him what he wrote in and he answered, "Oh, a little Visual Basic. How about you?".


I said, "C++ and MFC, with some Perl, and VB when I get into Access or Excel".


He says, "Isn't C++ pretty much obsolete, what with Java and VB?".


"Yes", I told him, "But it's pretty much all that's left for us old timers."


I'm pretty lucky. I've been in the same place for a long time, about 10 years, and I've migrated them from DOS to UNIX to NT Consulting was good to me while I did it but the long term relationships I have with the people I work with are priceless. The kids around here all think I'm a genius of some sort and I do what I can to perpetuate that myth.


It's a bit of a surprise to me that with the shortage of technical people and the vitality of people our age these days ( what with Viagra and all ) that there's a perception that a guy couldn't get a job just because he's a bit long in the tooth. True I may not learn as fast as I did thirtyfive years ago when I memorized the IBM 407 manuals over a weekend, but then again maybe I still do. How can you tell? Luckily for us we love to read.

[Jim McCreary]

I am probably one of the few people still alive who know why a "1" in the first column of a Fortran output format was a form feed. That's because we wired the board in the IBM 407 to form feed when the "1" punch in the first column was detected. Wire brushes came in contact with a brass roller and fired a relay.


I'm working with peers that are younger than my children and can't read without my glasses but that's OK. A lot of young bucks have been laid off but they keep me on contract and they are paying me to take a week of training in COM next month. Must be doing something right.

[Christine]

Interesting thread.


I would also be interested in hearing about the 'other side's' point of view.

As a relative "newbie" to the profession, I am the first to admit that I have a LOT to learn and grow into. I do enjoy the challenge and feel that I have finally begun on the right career path.


Unfortunately in my limited experience I have found that there is a tendency for the senior staff members to be somewhat uncommunicative and/or unwilling to share knowledge. I am wondering if this is a relatively rare occurrence.


Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Christine, 27

[Bob Clarke]

I wouldn't call it rare, but I've found that neither is it common. It seems to be more cultural within the company. The more a company respected its employees, the more secure the employees felt, and the less likely they were to hoard information in an attempt to protect their source of income.


Most of the people I've worked with, in large and small companies, were more than willing to help out the less experienced, regardless of age. I'm currently a freelance consultant, and the other consultants I meet are also very willing to share technical information.


Bob, 45, and-with-a-6-year-old,-still-far-from-being-Grandpa.

[Jim McCreary]

This may be a matter of company environment or may be an individual's problems. In my current contract position it was made clear to me that there was a young "permanent" employee who had a desire to learn more about my specialty and I was expected to help her. In a former life when I was first promoted into a "senior" position my supervisor at the time explained that senior employees were expected to mentor the less experienced. I think that I have been helpful. Of course help is more freely given when there is some sort of feedback of appreciation. A simple thank you will do.


The other side of the coin is that when she is fully up to speed will her experience and training mean that I am no longer needed as a contractor? I have also had junior staff members that expected so much that I had a very low opinion of them and started to resist any contact.

[Christine]

Just to clarify ..


I do not expect nor want 'hand-holding' from my co-workers [that's what the wizards are for :)] -- it just seems that cliques form, to exclude those who haven't yet proven themselves through the code, or lack years of experience.


But why snub the occassional question asked? Whenever I can help someone, it's my pleasure. Like on this amazing Message Board. I am hopeful that my current circumstances are specific to this firm.


An update BTW - it is exactly the above situation which has prompted me to obtain a much better opportunity; I start in 2 weeks. ;)

[Denis Dagenais]

It would seem that for Christine, your co-workers lack in maturity and respect for the newcomers, everybdoy has something to learn from everybody, young and old, experienced and not.


I am a senior designer and have encountered both ends, and I feel that the full spectrum of experiences can only help in an industry that has a bias agianst older candidates and against those who don not have the "experience / knowledge" needed.


You may not be able to teach an old dog new tricks, but lets face it, we are NOT DOGS.

[Colin Davies]

Yes Christine,

I also think the sharing of information here at codeguru, on the discussion-board, is amazing and wonderful. But follow a few threads and what I also find amazing is the incredbly low number of initiator's responses saying ("Thanx you solved my problem"). Why ? ( was the problem not solved ), (the initiator manged to thank the guru personally), (the initiator didn't want to waste bandwidth). Note : this won't stop me from giving an answer in the future when I am one-day capable of answering someone's questions.

I have found in the short-time that I have used code-guru that saying thanx, that helped me a lot, has lead me to cyber-aquaiterships that has also lead to duplex information sharing.

Whilst I do agree with the comment that certain business envionments are better or worse depending on the environment, I would be much more approachable to sharing information and giving help to a friendly young coworker, than to an unfriendly one. Thus I believe personal relationships are important in the workplace. Please note Christine, that I am not suggesting you or anyone else sleep there way to the top.

Anyhow better luck in your new position Christine.

And Thanx to Jim for his original response on saying Thank-You.


Regards

Colin Davies

[Dave]

Let me give you a perspective from someone who has managed (and hired) in companies ranging from Big Blue to start up companies. I've also been around for a while (Graduated in 1970). Finding a good senior person is like mining for gold, and when you find one, they are that valuable.


With the assumption that the hiring manager is looking for someone who is a pure technical professional (instead of a lead or manager), the challange for a senior person is to show in his resume that he is technically current, has a good energy level, and has good focus to complete projects. By itself. stating competence in recent program languages on a resume isn't really sufficient. I have completed two projects in VC++ as a closet programmer. Language familiarity- yes, professional?- no. Showing tangible activity in user's groups, seminars, formal classes, etc. really helps. Self study learned skill, though valid, is harder to demonstrate. My wife, who is a self taught programming consultant, has included a demo disk with her resume with some limited success. She also has a web site she references people to. For work history, stating what you worked on, what tools/languages you used, and what you actually completed and had working is important.


DON'T omitt your educational background details or portions of your work history. When I see a resume like that, it is the first I trash. It means to me that the person has something to hide, and I don't want to take the time to find out what it is.

[Tony Du]

I admire the old genius and the myth.


Some young guys often treat the computer world as fasion place, they like the new, chromatic, fantastic result, enjoy the easy and visual tools to make it. And the market also aim to make all the people to be the maker of computer world, and fix to the old place to just enjoy it.

I'm also used to be one of them.


I like to know the past of this world, I read the story of many old guru just like read the cavalier adventure, and I want to be one part of it.

Now I try to find the meaning of this computer world, and learn the most important things to be a maker, finnally to find the soul of it.

[Tony Du]

I'm also very like the codeguru, the people in this place are all friendly and generous to share information with each other, willing to solve other's problem. When I found it accidently, I know I will attach there for ever.


When I ask some question, I will try to express my thanks to the future answer in advance. But Davies, you know, some initiator will communicate though the email and look like they leave the thread alone.


I also willing to try my best to paticipate in this place.

And I think we also need to say thanks to the guru who maintain this site.


Tony Du

[Colin Davies]

True Tony Du

I myself sometimes send an e-mail to say thanks.

Today I did it again, for an article that made a lot of sense to me, and I could see from the posting of the article that having read it would save me,

Several weeks work. Remember time is money.

Actually I would have left a comment after the code to add how to compile it with VC6, But something was wrong in a codeguru script so I sent an E-mail.

Note: Always when I send an e-mail of this type, I make the subject or heading,

no need to reply. And the respondee always reply's.

I realise many others do send e-mails, and I believe a few don't as they have recieved the answer or key-word to there solution, and when they return to codeguru to announce the solution worked the threads already gone.

I too wish codeguru success and say thanx that codeguru exists.


Regards

Colin Davies

[Ross Faneuf]

I'm 55. I've been programming professionally for 31 years, and I've successfully avoided being shoved into management for most of that time. I acquire new skills as I need them, because I'm basically just as excited about programming, and having actually rather more fun, than I did in 1968. So at the moment its NT/MFC/C++ and in a month or two a component based app. And I passed a fun milestone a while back, when I got to tell a colleague that I learned recursion before he was born.


The only place I've encountered anything like ageism was contemplating a job with a games company. They definitely wanted young people. Otherwise the closest thing to an issue is that I don't listen to the same music. But then, I play the Highland bagpipe...


I'm not involved in hunting up contract programming, so that might have an effect. And I work for a great (small) company where ageism is definitely not an issue.

[Dianna Dearborn]

What I tell them, Dick, is that both VB and Java were originally written in C and/or C++ with a little assembly thrown in!


The higher level languages are great for the shrink-wrappers, but to get down to the nuts and bolts of system level programming, embedded processor programming and machine control you have to twiddle bits and know what a hand-shake means. You have to know how to synch a clock and be able to add hex numbers in you head. I just cannot envision a future where a "mid" level language like C/C++ isn't needed. It is the interface between the real world of silicon and volts and the virtual world of "CEditDoc* pDoc = GetDocument();". Besides, how would you build an efficient LALR parser in VB? If those younsters think that the only programming being done nowadays is Internet-database-accounting-games... well, let them! I've got a job.


Just for the fun of it, I do a little MFC and VB (utilities mostly) and plan to pick up Java some day soon just to check it out. But, I will never give up my C and C++ compilers!!!


When we old-timers sit down to start a new project, we are half way done (compared to the newbies) because of our experiences. We make fewer false starts and already have a feel for what the finished product will look like. We are the only ones left who know the gears and grease and grit of computer systems and how to make hardware smart. Not only did we start at the bottom of the technology, we defined it and we built it! The way I see it, every new project is really just a refinement of our last project with a few new twists and features. How many ways are there to parse a command line or sort a file or link a list anyway? We start right out on the new and tricky stuff. That's why experience counts.


Personally, I fill a special niche between the hardware engineers who don't know how to program well and the software engineers who don't understand the hardware. I make great money and will have a job as long as I want because the youngsters are more interested in the sizzle of the Internet. I love making industrial strength, bulletproof tools that nobody ever sees but enables and advances the technology. I love working away in some obscure lab with glowing 'scopes and the smell of burnt soldering rosin. I love working on the technology that creates the technology that makes possible the technology that everone sees. I love having had a small part in making this industry. I love having experience.


If you can sell to a prospective employer your love for your work and the value of your experience you can always find a job. Not in spite of your age but because of it!


Anyway, by way of introduction, I'm a not so little old lady who wears sensible shoes and goes prematurely "blonde" just before her hair appointments. :-) I was chosen by this vocation (we called it "electronics" back then) when I was 12 (1958). I went from hobbyist to assembler to technician to logic designer to senior engineer to SE to whatever I am now... I've worked in communications, semiconductors and the disk drive biz (since 1974). I started programming assy in 1969 on minicomputers. Along the way, I worked on the first communication satellite ground station, worked on Apollow 9, 10 and 11 teams, developed the first PROM programmer as we now know them (that earned my engineer title in 1970). I was an early adopter of microprocessors and I once wrote every line of test and process code that ran a disk drive factory -- she says proudly.


Oh, and I have no formal education because women weren't supposed to go into the biz back then. I'm home spun. Er... I also like to write. Sorry for being so long winded. ;-)

[James]

Just wait until they attempt to get a job at a company where commercial software development is thier livelyhood. I would guess 99% of these companies use C/C++, not Visual Basic, Delphi, or any other 4th generation language with the exception of Java (what I call C--) for product development. Anyone who thinks C/C++ skills are not in demand should just do a job search for it on one of the job boards (www.dice.com) and look. C++ with COM/DCOM is extrememly hot right now and is paying 80+K.

[Dianna Dearborn]

Good analysis about the economics of this biz. The only defense is a good offense.


Let me defend the non-managerial senior employee. I read an article in the SJ Merc, or ?? a few months ago that said first level technical managers, on average, actually make less money than their senior people. It was certainly so for at least 3 of us at the last company I worked for. Our mgr complained about it to us off and on. He had been out of the design biz too long to get back in.


The worst part for him is that he became totally dependent on us to pull him through the most cutting edge stuff. He lost touch because he spent so much time in meetings and doing budgets, etc. And he realized that the "agism" of upper management was just as bad or worse. The young turks with prestigious MBS's (and little used tech BS's) run this biz. They took over in the mid 1980s when we went from being technology driven to market driven. He was trapped in low level management in a biz that was quickly moving out from under him.


-- As an aside, a girlfriend of mine graduated with a BS in Physics from UCSJ in 1990. I went to her graduation. Each school was called one by one and when all the scientist and engineers had stood up and sat back down they numbered about 100 or so. When the the business degrees were called, about 300 in all took to their feet. Makes you wonder who they were going to manage.


I managed at four companies, with gaps, for about 9-10 years total and went back to being an "individual contributer" 10 years ago just because I missed the work so - and I hate meetings. Smartest thing I ever did! (I do hw/sw design - mostly sw nowadays - embedded stuff and drivers, servowriters and test systems in the disk drive biz). I'm one of the original nerds dating way back.


I tell the young bucks that early on in their careers they should get a breadth of experience, find what the technology they like most and then specialize. Programming is a skill, MFC/C++ is a tool, client/server is a technique, databases are, for example, a means and data management is a technology. Having a skill with a particular tool is not enough. One needs to master a technology and develop the means. The tools and techniques will change as the technology and means change and we develop the new skills as they do. But, we change the technology.


The goal is to stay informed and work hard to become one of the top few in your field as you age. You don't have to be *the* guru, but working with a few over a career is great. Find out where the action is in your field and work there. Be part of the team that advances the technology.


"Pull the cutting edge after you," and you will always have a job. I'ts more fun than managing.

[James]

Managers make more money than the developers at the company I current work for. Thats why I am starting at a new company on the 1st. Programmers make all the big bucks.. Managers don't.

[Once and Future Consultant]

What do you do when you have a crummy boss on a project? Switch jobs. It's

really that simple.


Besides, you look smarter from outside the organisation. Getting into a job at

a competitor for a year or two, then comming back, often means you jump two

or three levels in seniority, salary, responsibility, etc.


Keep that resume polished. Send it out. Don't work in one palce forever, unless

that place is amazingly unusually nice to work at. Plan to move on after at most

five years unless they are promoting you and giving you way more money

already. But leave on good terms. Give notice and all the other good things

that keep your reputation shiny at the old employer. Don't go into your old

boss's office and tell him/her all the things you have bit your tongue over for

the last four years.

[Clarise]

Christine, I have found that not only does ageism exist but sexism. I am in my late 30's.. and have been around the old boys club long enough to know that many man.. not all.. still do not want women in their work place. Especially when they learn quickly and have leadership qualities. Many men and many women are threatened by young women.. why? who knows? they cannot imagine how they will have to be if they have a younger person especially a woman as their supervisor or boss.. or company president etc.. they make the problem about her and not about their discrimination of the woman based on their own fears.. I see ageism everyday in my workplace.. older adults are looked down upon.. I have talked with other people about it... and they say as people age they require more time off from work for medical reasons.. and expect special priviledges just because they are older.. I have been in the work environment where men do not want to share with a woman.. because they really don't know how to relate to a woman.. simply.. so the old computer geeks get old and still don't know how to have a real relationship with people.. besides on the email and if they are married the only woman they talk with is their wife.. and other women some how are a threat.. or stir their sexual desires.. I am fully aware of what men say.. I hear it.. all the time. I am aware that they equate everything with sex.. well hey guys most women are just there to work.. not socialize in the sense you are thinking.. and please get over yourselves and let women do their job.. Yes, there are many women out there who take time off for babies.. etc.. but they don't make the babies alone.. I guess I am really tired of men complaining about discrimination.. when it happens to them.. we are all supposed to get up and take notice.. look around ageism is even worse for women.. how many older women programmers/managers/CEO's you know? So where are all the women? Christine, it does not get better.. You have to fend for yourself.. and education and training and maybe even starting your own company would be something that you would need to do.. for yourself. They don't want to talk with you.. because they often have thoughts about what they would like to do to you.. and then you are there in their face asking questions and they are thinking about what they have thought about you and cannot hear you...

OK guys go off on me.. but you know I am right.. -- Clarise