Is Microsoft Certification really worthwhile

[Zafir Anjum]

Are you aware of the different levels of certifications? Do they really test the

right skill?


Personally I don't think they test the right set of skills.


Do you have any ideas on what kind of certification would really be valuable?

[matt weagle]

I arrive at MFC from a most unorthodox background. I'm planning on taking (and hopefully passing) the WinArch MCSD exams to demonstrate some degree of proficiency to prospective employers. I realize this is a large undertaking and was wondering if others would suggest a better approach. Should certification take a back seat to more general study or some other option? Any advice, encouragement, or even vents would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Dan Ramage]

I think the idea of miscrosoft trying to place some sort of significance on

their certification is a joke. Look at the products they provide. I've found

that the developer studio will consume massive amounts of memory under debug

mode and not release the memory when you close developer studio. Access puts

a 100% load on the processor all the time, even when minimized. Look at how

bloated IE4.0 is.

I think ms is merely trying to create a market for their tests. What frightens

me is the prospect that some management/HR morons will believe that these

tests show how good or bad a programmer is and base their employment policies

on this certification.

Needless to say I don't think certification is worthwhile.


Dan

[Mike]

If you think this discussion is about MS products than this is unobjective and useless.


I made my master of science a few years ago and since then I am softwaredeveloper with C++ and MFC.

My experience is that a lot of developer can code quite good, but this is often the only thing they can and know. But after taking the two WinArch-exams most of these guys reached another level.

It is not the same with the MFC and the OLE exam.


Mike

[Dan Ramage]

No where does it say to keep all replies objective. It is a discussion and I

gave my opinion. I reach another level on every project I work on. I admit that

I do not know what the context of these exams are, and I will look to see what

merits they may have.


Dan

[Mike]

It's nice to see that you seem to be exactly as expected. You know nothing about Microsofts Certification, but you don't like Microsoft and that's why the Certification is bad. Nice way to see the world and so simple.


Mike

[Dan Ramage]

Nice retort! Those exams obviously must be worthwhile.

[Dan Schulz]

I've actually only taken the SQL Server 6.5 Implementation exam. I was just about ready to take the arch tests and Microsoft said they were creating a new architecture exam and two Visual C++ core exams, one covering desktop apps and the other covering distributed apps. I can't say anything about the tests I never took, but I do know, there is no way you can fake your way through these exams. Whenever I see resumes with MCSD on them, I immediately know, they know their stuff. Microsofts new exams won't be available till this fall but it does sound like they have taken a step in the right direction (as far as content goes).

[Paul Doherty]

I guess you'd rather they have to deal with everyone as an in-duh-vidual, huh? At least it's a way of knowing a person is at a quantifiable level of competency without having to go through exhaustive background (in which there could be some lies/deception/exaggeration). After certification, then experience can be taken into account for positions that need more clarification of skills.

[Paul Doherty]

So you based your entire opinion of "MS certification being a joke" on knowing nothing about even the content of the exams??

[Paul Doherty]

I just finished the MCP+Internet/MCSE tests (and I already have CNA/CNE) and I can tell you these are well-done too. If you think you can fake your way through these be my guest (and blow 100.00 bucks a pop for each failure). I know several people who after studying specifically for these tests have had to take some up to 3 times to pass.

[Dan Ramage]

I don't feel that Microsoft can give these exams and say you are qualified

when their software is delivered time and time again with multitudes of bugs.

I've dealt with people who are "MS Certified" for Microsoft networks, I believe

that's what it's called, whose sole response time and time again to MS Exchange

not working was "You need to reinstall NT Server". I guess that's one source of

my bias towards these exams. I forsee that they will slowly phase in that these

certifications last X amount of time. I learned my programming skills while I

was in college and I use Microsoft products as tools in my work.

[Paul Doherty]

Well I can appreciate that MS's products have their share (or more) of bugs. but that doesn't invalidate them from teaching/certifying programming skills. Debugging is merely one aspect of programming, and lacking skill in that area (I'm not saying they are lacking as their apps are much larger than anything I've ever worked on) does not invalidate you as an expert in other areas (knowledge transfer, skill-level certification, etc). Do you agree?


Home of PC DiskMaster - File/Dir Manager for Win 95/98/NT4

[Richard Ashkettle]

For those of you that don't think Certification is a worthwhile venture, you aren't out there in the job market, are you? Perhaps some of you should spend a bit of time looking at what the business world (and let's face it, those are the majority of the folks who hire us programmers) is looking for. In almost every case, MS certification is considered better than a college diploma. With a degree, you have proven that you can sit through classes. You actually have to exibit a good amount of skill to get a MS Certification (try a sampling of tests for MCSD sometime if you don't believe me).

I recently passed up several new college grads for a job and instead took the one with certification. The grads have a piece of paper. That tells me nothing. The guy with the Cert...he showed that he knows his stuff.


Nuff Said

Richard Ashkettle

[Paul Doherty]

I think you've gone a bit overboard on this one... "A college degree only shows you can sit through classes"? Get a little dose of reality here... you don't get passed for showing up in college. And a person with a four-year degree from a university has gone through more than the 4 tests required for MCSD (or even the 6 for the MCSE) by about a factor of 40, and in all types of subject areas not *just* those pertaining to the job at hand. If all you want is a "code-monkey" then the MCSD alone is a good way to find one (and obviously pay less) but a person with a degree and certification will always come out the better. You can't be a "Renaissance Man" when you only know one area.


(better modify my sig :-)

--

Paul Doherty

AA, BA, Texas Teacher-Certified to teach Psychology and Computer Science

CNA/CNE/MCP+I/MCSE

http://www.dfw.net/~pdoherty

Home of PC DiskMaster, a file and directory manager for Win95/98/NT4

[Long John]

I think that at least MCSD tests skills of RAD VB programming.


If I want to hire experienced MFC/C++ -programmer, I wouldn't appreciate much MCSD-certification.


I think there is no Microsoft Certification that tests right skills for MFC/C++ -programmer.

[Skil Masterson]

...DEPENDS. Have a nice one.

[Kyle Crane]

I agree 100%. I think it is very sad indeed to see someone turn down an applicant because he/she doesn't have MSCert. I know that the exams are tough, most people will agree on that. What I disagree on is that a college degree indicates that I "sat through classes". After investing 5 years (yes, I was a stupid freshman) and over $20,000 in obtaining a degree, I can say that it shows a person is willing to invest time, effort, and money to reach thier goals. Some of us even "know our stuff" upon graduation. And speaking for myself I am most eager to find a job where I can fit in, and make a contribution. I may not know it all now but I love the challenge learning it and keeping up with it. Quite a few of the MCPs I know seem to expect that cetificate to do thier job for them.


I hope this doesn't become a trend. The cert. is nice but don't underestimate the talent that is coming out of school either. Some of us even go well beyond what our degree provides with our own study.


Kyle


Robotics and electronics depot

[Kyle crane]

I agree 100%. I think it is very sad indeed to see someone turn down an applicant because he/she doesn't have MSCert. I know that the exams are tough, most people will agree on that. What I disagree on is that a college degree indicates that I "sat through classes". After investing 5 years (yes, I was a stupid freshman) and over $20,000 in obtaining a degree, I can say that it shows a person is willing to invest time, effort, and money to reach thier goals. Some of us even "know our stuff" upon graduation. And speaking for myself I am most eager to find a job where I can fit in, and make a contribution. I may not know it all now but I love the challenge learning it and keeping up with it. Quite a few of the MCPs I know seem to expect that cetificate to do thier job for them.


I hope this doesn't become a trend. The cert. is nice but don't underestimate the talent that is coming out of school either. Some of us even go well beyond what our degree provides with our own study.


Kyle


Robotics and electronics depot

[Humble Programmer]

Once more into the fray:


I hire technical people to do everything from web server administration to software development. One of the biggest problems I face is verifying that these people have the skills they say they do. I have had an earnest and sincere candidate tell me he was a C/C++ programmer, only to later find out that this statement was based on the fact that he had installed Borland Turbo C on his computer at home.


No...certification doesn't guarantee that the person knows anything...but it is a lot easier to believe than "trust me". It seems that most of the time the people who interview technical candidates have no technical skills at all, and can't tell the difference between C and COBOL. So how are they to know you really are an "expert"--or more importantly--why should they pick you over the guy they interview next? Certification is basically a way to establish credentials that any moron can verify, which makes you that much easier to hire.


Cheers!

Humble Programmer (& MCSE)

,,,^..^,,,

[I. Sarwana]

[Ravi B]

Imho, there is no substitute for having a knowledgable engineer

(or three) interview a prospective hire on your behalf. This has

been the norm at every company I've worked at. It's usually not

difficult to make a fairly accurate judgement about one's capabilities,

technical or otherwise.


/ravi

[Bret Piatt]

Next time somebody tells you that they know a language possibly try asking them

to give you some samples of projects they've previously done in the language

or to code up a small 5-10 hour project for you? I think the certification is

as worthwhile as a CSCI degree, and I have neither but I'm rather certain I'm

a more qualified programmer than many that have both. From my experience the

certification/college degree just shows me that the person has the will to

work on a task till completed but doesn't always mean they actually know what

the piece of paper says they do.

[M. Cox]

depends on what you mean by "worthwhile". will they make you a genius

programmer? probably not, but they cant hurt either. will they help you get

a job with more money? very likely. will it show that you know

your #%#%#* with microsoft products, who just happen to rule the

world? most likely. the certifications have nothing to do with the

quality of microsoft products.


by the way, anyone who says the tests are not indicitive of your

knowledge or difficult needs to take the MCSE exams (i am on #3 of 6).

i was in school for 8 years (1 BS and 2 MS's in cs and math), so i know

a good test when i see one. these test are VERY indepth.


also, on average nationwide, an MCSE certification will get you about a

13K raise and will open a lot of doors for your career.

[Warren Marshall]

Yes, that's true. The business world always seems to want to look at a college degree, MS certification or some other bullshit piece of paper that means nothing in the real world...


The real programmers you want to hire are the guys who have been screwing around in their basements since they were 15. The guys who taught THEMSELVES C, C++, Java or whatever because they were truly interested in what they were doing ... not because they wanted to land a certain job.


We've hired a few people here who were top of their class at university and turned out to be completely inept at even the simplest coding task.


Real programmers are born ... not made. :)

[Jay Giganti]

I like the way you think. Certification or a diploma mean little to me.


Give me someone who gets a smile on their face when they see a challenge ahead of them and a person who has the desire and drive to tackle those problems.


I would rather sit down and fire off some questions and look at some code and make a decision based on that.

[Mark Nischalke, MCSD]

Dan,

How can you base your evaluation of MS Certification on their bloat-ware and that a particular program uses more resources then you think it should? If other companies had the same problems would you degrade their certifications?


Have you ever attempted to become MS certified? It sounds like you have not, or maybe have and failed.


I can say that for me it has been a very good thing. I've gained knowledge and proficiency that have directly benefited me in my job. I think that a HR person evaluating me based on my cert is good, it was not something that was given away I had to demonstrate proficiency to pass the exams. That in itself tells them that I'm not just playing the game, I can actually perform the tasks.

[Mark Nischalke, MCSD]

And what would the right skills be? I would enjoy hearing your response.

[Mark Nischalke, MCSD]

You have no experience in what the exams cover or what skills are built by studying for them so how can you talk? If you can't measure up then try another field, but don't degrade others who have put forth the efforts to gain the experience. Put up or shut up!!!



Do you consider yourself an expert in C/C++ because you open a book once?

[Long John]

I think programming skills are very hard to test through these Sylvan Prometric style test. But some points of view why I think that MCSD doesn't really measure right skills.


Well so far I have studied there is practically nothing

about VC++/MFC in

Exam 70-160: Microsoft® Windows® Architecture I

and

Exam 70-161: Microsoft® Windows® Architecture II.


Well in Suggested Reading of these Exams there seems to be lots of good information but you don't have know those to pass exams.


I have material of course

Course 794: Microsoft Windows Architecture for Developers,

which is suggested preparation course for WinArch I and II.

I think there is very little valuable to MFC/C++ programmer in that course and

this course should be

At least passing these exams don't require any knowledge about MFC/C++.


I think skills that are most important MFC/C++ programmer in WinArch I and II

are

Component Technologies

Operating System Awareness

but knowledge required in those area are too general.


Well now something about

Exam 70-024

Developing Applications with C++ Using the Microsoft® Foundation Class Library


First of all, I don't know what version of MFC is used in this exams questions??


Well I think this Exam measures that you have basic understanding how MFC works and how to create applications from AppWizard skeleton. It's better than nothing.


Then there is other MFC exam

Exam 70-025

Implementing OLE in Microsoft® Foundation Class Library 4.0 Applications .


Well if you want to create a good OLE product you probably won't use MFC.

I don't have that much inforamtion about this exam. But friend of mine said

that questions in that test were too detailed. You have to remember details such as member functions of OLE Classes which in practice you don't have remember exactly. (There are lots of OLE classes and members of them)


Skills what I think are very valuable lacking (at least enough)in MCSD are:

WIN32

Utilize MFC without AppWizard.

"What is behind the scene" - how is MFC implemented.

How to create reusable MFC code.


In generally speaking I think taht MCSD don't require skills from MFC/C++ programmer that is reason why to choose MFC/C++ instead of VB.


I agree that you probably learn lots of new stuff when you certify yourself MCSD but are those skills you learn relly essential for MFC/C++ programmer.


These are my personal opinions.


PS.Well of course MCSD is better than nothing evidence of your skills.


PPS. english is not my mother tongue, so it might be hard to understand what i am writing.

[Mark Nischalke, MCSD]

Your correct there is not very much in 70-160 & 70-161 about VC++ or MFC. But there wasn't meant to be, that is not the focus of the exam.


As for what version of MFC is used for the exams. How can you be so negative about an exam and it's creditiblity if you know nothing about it?


You comment that the exam only measures ones ability to use the App Wizard. Again if you know nothing about it how can you judge it? For the record it does not rely on App Wizard, there are areas that are measured that you can not do with the App Wizard. Such as message maps and usage of CRect, CPoint and CSize objects, what is the print process and how it functions. I don't recall one question that had anything to do with using the App Wizard.


How can you imply that MCSD does not teach the skills of reusable code? MFC was primarily developed for code resuablity.


In essence it seems as though you are making judgements on subjects you know little about. My advice would be to do some research before commenting. It doesn't matter what language you speak, ignorance is universal.

[Long John]

First of all my discussion is based on hypothetical on question

"If i should hire a MFC/C++ programmer, how do I value MCSD -certification?"

Well I have tried to be very critical.

If I want to hire MFC/C++ programmer i expect that he or she has skills that give some additional value comparing to VB programmer.


Certification exams for MFC/C++ programmer is little out of date.

For example there is no exam for ATL at least yet.

I hope those incoming exams on Visual C++ 6.0 will correct the situation.


Well you wrote:

"As for what version of MFC is used for the exams. How can you be so negative about an exam and it's creditiblity if you know nothing about it? "


Could you point me where in Preparation Guide for Exam 70-024 is said what version of MFC exam covers.

So far i have understand the version of MFC used in this exam is 3.0.

Could you tell me if i am wrong?


You wrote:

"You comment that the exam only measures ones ability to use the App Wizard. Again if you know nothing about it how can you judge it? For the record it does not rely on App Wizard, there are areas that are measured that you can not do with the App Wizard. Such as message maps and usage of CRect, CPoint and CSize objects, what is the print process and how it functions. I don't recall one question that had anything to do with using the App Wizard"


I didn't say that. At least I didn't meant that the exam measures ones ability to use the App Wizard. What i wrote was

"How to create applications from AppWizard skeleton."

What i meant is that you really don't have to know, how create MFC application without AppWizard when you pass exam 70-024. (At least so far i remember those questions in that exam.) And if you don't know that you probably don't understand how application framework works.


Well CRect, CPoint and CSize objects are very thin wrappers around RECT, POINT and SIZE structures and some win32 functions.


PS. You should not take this very personally. These are only my opinions. And that's what for these kind of forums are.

And anyway thak you for your advice I keep that in my mind.


PPS. MFC Exam can't tell much about your ability of programmer because even I passed that exam.

[Frank Davis]

Sorry, I can't talk about MS Certification but regarding the diploma, in my experience, those with diplomas tend to be more mature in their ability to interact with others and to complete projects. I would not hire someone without a diploma, simply because college graduates have shown that they can put up with the BS to complete a goal. Though you are correct that there are some sharp people out there who haven't gone to college, in my experience, they do not communicate as well, don't get along with team members as easily, and more likely to quit than to stick it out. There are good and bad programmers in each group.

[Bret Piatt]

My 2 cents about a diploma, it shows that you're willing to sit there and

spend 4+ years of your life, as far as learning any programming skills, well

I know many people who were just good at sitting around and leeching how to

do the assignments from other people in the class. A diploma, a MS

certification, a peice of paper that shows you attended a C++ devlopment

seminar at COMDEX, or any other paper are really just things to help you get

in the door. If your resume doesn't stand up good enough compared to the

others applying for the jobs you are after then you won't even get called

back for an interview. Other than that one thing I'll have to say that the

papers are useless, no project is exactly like another and just because you

have paper X doesn't mean you've really learned how to problem solve, it just

means you might be more likely to have that ability.

[Jeff Kohn]

That just isn't true in my experience. Most of the graduates coming out of school these days are lemmings who can't think for themselves, and have to have everything spelled out for them step by step. Their logic and problem-solving skills are terrible for the most part. All a college degree means is that you were willing to waste 4+ years of your life, and that your parents were probably paying the bill. This is one of the few industries left where I think that a college degree isn't nearly as important as what you know and how easily you can learn and pick up new things. Of course, big companies with narrow-minded HR personnel are only going to hire college graduates, but those aren't the kind of jobs that the smart people want anyway :^)


Jeff

[Mark Guerra]

I have read the responses to this question about Microsoft Certification. I have contemplated this question myself about whether or not it is useful.


However since I am relatively new to MFC/MS Visual C++ tool I cannot comment on specifics about certification tests, but I am a seasoned programmer with 11+ years experience. My expertise is Unix, C, C++, Unix shell programming and I know many different programming languages with moderate expertise like LISP, Prolog, FORTRAN, PV~WAVE, perl, Python, assembly code (Intel 80x86), etc.


I have a BS in Computer Science and Mathemetics also. I have returned to a job where I can re-aquaint myself with Microsoft and PC programming again after 8+ years doing programming on mostly Unix systems. My first several jobs were programming PCs when Microsoft Windows SDK was brand new (we used Digital Research Graphics Environment Manager for window programming and Microsoft Quick C too) and the fastest PC contained an Intel 80286 and 80386 for CPU.


I think certification is great for opening up opportunities for those having certification but there is no substitute for experience in computer architectures, computer software design and analysis skills. I think that for those having MS certifications, they server a specific purpose -- you have demonstrated you know MS tools and programming skills.


I might obtain an MS certification myself when I can find the time to dedicate to it. I have even considered going back to college for a masters degree. (What is it's worth?)


I hope my current employer (and past employers) hired me for more than my programming skills. Things such as communication skills, problem solving skills, project management skills, risk management, written and oral communications, teaching experience, etc.


I think certification just like diplomas are justified ways of demonstrating your potential. I worked with a programmer who I consider a true "Renaissance Man". He graduated MIT in 60s, worked with the first computers, mined uranium (his own company), flew airplanes, sails, builds and designs sail boats, use milling machines, works on cars, has a library of a thousand books (has read more though), he knows philosophy, history, etc.


He is an example that there is more to life than just computers, programs and programmers. So take certifications (or diplomas) or neither and make of programming what you can.


And if you are ever in West Galveston Bay near Galvetson, Texas (U.S.A.) you might see me fishing or boating or on the beach there with my family since ... there more to programming that just code...

[Dimarzio]

CS Departments are really clueless.. Maybe if this great CS Degree would teach you current technologies then I would agree with this guy. But then... if your slow and need 4 years with some old school cobol teachers holding your hand, go for that great CS degree.. bah real developers take it upon themselves to learn! Thus becoming certified or whatever.. as far as "Code slinging monkeys" or whatever you said, It's better than being a CS monkey without a job.

[Dimarzio]

I think you should take a peek at mircosofts web site. MCSD requires more than just visual basic skills haha..

[Justin Rudd]

I have mixed feelings about certification.


I'm certified but I don't use the acronyms anywhere in my title. They aren't even on my resume. If I am asked specifically if I am certified then I will ask "Does this matter?". If the interviewer says yes...I know its time to leave because I am being judged on what tests I've passed not my knowledge.


I believe the tests are somewhat difficult, but I do know of several people that just bought the test material, studied for a few days, and then passed. Ask them to perform a task that is based on the test they just finished passing and they cannot without difficulty.


When I interview someone who is certified I never bring it up. 9 times out of 10 the interviewee will bring it up that they are certified. That is a big thumbs down for me. I know that person is certified, I see it own his resume.


I haven't yet looked at the new barrage of tests coming from MS ( specifically the designing Distributed Applications with Visual C++ 6.0 ), but hopefully it will be tougher than test 70-24 ( the old MFC test ).

[Paul Doherty]

Yeah who wants those high-paying secure jobs where you're provided the latest in technology and tools, with excellent 401k and health benefits? ;-)

[Jeff Kohn]

I prefer to have all of those things and work at a company where I'm judged by my abilities, not some stupid piece of paper.

[Paul Doherty]

Who ever said you would be forever judged by "your accomplishments?" (what degrees and certifications fall under, as well as experience) Oh yeah... I did, and so did just about everyone else on here. And it's only due to your likely lack of such accomplishments as degrees and certifications that you attempt to belittle them with such remarks. If you don't wish to invest in yourself that's fine by me, just don't try to stifle those of us that do. This "misery loves company" attitude that "no one should benefit from their investments in themselves because I haven't done those things" is so transparent it's silly.

[Paul Doherty]

A note - for those willing to debate this issue there is a forum for this at Network World magazine's online site (you have to register first for access- for free). http://www.nwfusion.com


After entering the site on the frame at left select Opinions to get the full list of topics and choose the one on "Certifications - Worth the paper they're printed on?" to join the discussion. be sure and use the previous button to jump back several messages to catch the flow before contributing (over 500 messages now I think).

[Jeff Kohn]

First of all, I was responding to a post from someone who said that they would not hire someone without a diploma regardless of their other qualifications. This attitude is a mistake IMHO.


As for college, it is my opinion that a college education alone is not enough to become a competent software engineer. I finished about 2/3 of my degree before getting frustrated with the fact that I wasn't being taught the stuff that I felt I needed to know. If you feel that your college education was a worthwhile investment, that's good for you. The thing that bothers me is when people place too much value in a diploma. To dismiss someone with the appropriate knowledge and experience just because they don't have a degree is a mistake, and so is assuming that someone is qualified just because they have a degree.


RE: your assumptions about me, I've invested plenty in my career; just not a degree. I think that 3rd-party books and magazines, technical conferences, and forums such as this one and various newsgroups are all worthwhile investments of my time and money, and they are much more affordable than a college degree. In getting back to the original topic, I do have an MCSD certification. I work for a Solution Provider, so my certification has value to them. Then again, I don't think that a certification alone means anything about someone's knowledge or ability, but neither does a college degree (or lack thereof).


Jeff

[Mike Housey]

I think prehaps it is worth it to some degree. I live in New Orleans, and get paid top dollar, even know I do not have the full certification (I have VB and SQL Server) I dont believe I could get any more money with the certification.


It is good however considering that you learn a lot durring the process which helps you out in the long run. However, I am quite upset that for an MCSD, they continue to change the qualifications. I just spent 1500 on a cource for windows system arc I and II, and now they have retired the exams...


This really boils my blood.

[Observer]

Ummm, not speaking for Dan, but it seems yall overlooked one of his main points and are just taking offense to his comments. Please re-read his paragraph...


"Look at the products they provide. I've found that the developer studio will consume massive amounts of memory under debug mode and not release the memory when you close developer studio. Access puts a 100% load on the processor all the time, even when minimized. Look at how bloated IE4.0 is"


I shall translate this for those that do not seem to understand the point being made.


If an organization produces sub-par products, then what good is a certification from that same organization? All this proves is that the certified individual is also capable of producing sub-par products. That's about as useful as a driving instructor with 3 DWI's giving out a passing grade




Thank you and have a nice day :)

[Paul Doherty]

That position obviously makes some (unsupported) assumptions. One it assumes

that for MS to be able to certify you to program that they themselves have to be

able to program. This is a fallacy as their certification program may be done

by others than those who write their apps (obviously *very* likely). It also assumes that the person being certified is being certified to write apps on a scale that MS writes them - that is huge, multi-million line code coded in teams, and that just isn't the case. Finally it is assuming that the author of the previous email is telling the truth *and* is an authority on buggy vs non-buggy software. He could have just misconfigured his machine, had faulty RAM or some other anomaly that is causing his problems. Or he could just have an axe to grind against MS in general that would bias his statements. now if that doesn't destroy that argument nothing short of a nuclear attack will! :-)

[Paul Doherty]

Jeff Kohn said:

>Then again, I don't think that a certification alone means anything about >someone's knowledge or ability, but neither does a college degree (or lack >thereof).


So then I guess, accfording to that logic, I could randomly sample 1,000 people from the general population (as long as they were non-degreed) and then also randomly sample 1,000 people that *are* degreed and therefore I would find no difference in the knowledge or abilities exhibited by these two disparate groups? Does anyone actually believe that would happen?? Because that is exactly your position paraphrased from above. That is, that a person (with a degree) cannot be expected to exhibit any higher degree of knowledge or skill than any other person. This in effect is saying that my experiment described above would yield identical results for both groups, say on an IQ test, or a standardized verbal or reading skills evaluation, or a knowledge of US history, or any other metric you care to name. This is so ludicrous (I'm not even sure you realized the depth of statement you made) I find it hard to believe you had a straight face on while typing it.

[Joseph Smith-- MCP- MFC]

I find having the certification rewarding in two ways. One, I've learned quite a bit about VC++ when preparing for the exam. Granted I don't know a lot to publish an book, but I have been published.

Second, it gives me an advantage when job searching. When a decision comes down to two people and one isn't certified, guess who gets the offer ?

I don't understand people in this thread that think that certifications are useless. I'm willing to bet, it's their code I'm constantly fixing ! I'm proud to know what I know and will mention it in an interview just like I'll mention my accomplishments. After all, isn't it an accomplishment? I guess going to training is worthless too. I'd hate to hire someone that will require a bunch of training over someone that can hit the floor running. You can't even be sure that the person has done what they said they have on a resume, but you sure can validate the person's Certification number. Just about the only think you can ask the previous employer is if the person worked there. And we all know how we fix up our own resumes to get the job !


Besides, how can a certification be useless ? I guess having a drivers lic. is useless too.

[Jeff Kohn]

>>So then I guess, accfording to that logic, I could randomly sample 1,000 people from the general population (as long as they were non-degreed) and then also randomly sample 1,000 people that *are* degreed and therefore I would find no difference in the knowledge or abilities exhibited by these two disparate groups? <<


Now Paul, really. If you honestly believe that is what I meant by last post, maybe you need to go back to school and take a class on reading comprehension. Go back and read it again, the second paragraph in particular. Let me try to explain this to you one more time. I'm not saying that you can pick any person of the street and expect them to be a competent programmer. What I am saying is that someone with knowledge, experience, and skills in programming, but without a degree, can be just as competent (or more so) than someone else who has a degree. Since you seem to keep ignoring this statement, I'm going to assume that you can't find fault with it.

[Paul Doherty]

OK here is the exact quote from your statement a few posts back:


&gt;Then again, I don't think that a certification alone means anything about >someone's knowledge

&gt;or ability, but neither does a college degree (or lack thereof).


So I will narrow my "thought experiment" down even further. Let's just focus on IT professionals ( a rather narrow lot wouldn't you say :-). According to your statement above there should be found no correlation between people who have degrees and certifications and *their* level of skill and knowledge versus those who do not have these credentials and *their* skill and knowledge. Your statement literally says (and correct me if I'm misinterpreting this) that a certification or degree alone says *nothing about that persons abilities or knowledge*. It's what you said above. Now I suspect you meant *any indvidual case-by-case basis* basis. But having exceptions doesn't violate a general rule, and I still contend that if you took a random sample of IT professionals (or even more focused, just programmers) that have degrees and/or certifications and a similar sample of the same job function ones who do not that you *would* find a significant difference in favor of the degreed/certified in many arenas. And as I stated before the more metrics you used the more the discrepancy would show up. In other words if all you tested was skill at programming they might look closer to the same (but I still believe the degreed would come out on top). But as you extended into other areas of knowledge of IT, and especially in other "soft" skill areas and knowledge the differences would become huge. There is no substitue for a formal education process. people who do self-directed learning tend to focus on 1) what's of immediate benefit (i.e. "got to start/finish this project") or 2) what they find most "interesting" (read "easy/familiar). A formal education not only forces you to examine topics you otherwise would ignore your whole life (and *can* ignore after your degree if you so choose :-) but they force you to delve into areas of each topic you would be unlikely to delve into on a self-directed search, and force you to demonstrate mastery of those same topics.


So should you go out and fire all the non-degreed/certified people on staff who are doing good work simply because they are lacking these things? Of course not. But it *should* weight heavily on any manager that wants to see their people prosper and grow with their company without restraint. As someone else pointed out it says a lot to me when someone has not invested themselves into their profession by attaining these credentials. It says a lot about the personality of the individual that they are focused and determined if they have obtained these achievements. Sorry we can't seem to agree on this point...


Best Regards,

Paul Doherty

[phil]

warren,

it odd you said that because i've been programming since i was 12 and have learned assembly, C, BASIC, and other languages but i have no degree. when i first went to college i remember helping this guy on my hall who was in his 3rd year of CS and actually a pretty good programmer with assembly. the thought of going into a class starting off with 'this is a bit' was too unbearable. there were people at school who were ready to graduate in CS who passed their classes but they really couldn't program... others would always help them with their code. there were two guys chris and scott on my hall and we used to program for the fun of it... like we'd been doing since we were kids... i'd seriously try to find guys like them... they were good !

phil :)

[Phil]

warren,

it odd you said that because i've been programming since i was 12 and have learned assembly, C, BASIC, and other languages but i have no degree. when i first went to college i remember helping this guy on my hall who was in his 3rd year of CS and actually a pretty good programmer with assembly. the thought of going into a class starting off with 'this is a bit' was too unbearable. there were people at school who were ready to graduate in CS who passed their classes but they really couldn't program... others would always help them with their code. there were two guys chris and scott on my hall and we used to program for the fun of it... like we'd been doing since we were kids... i'd seriously try to find guys like them... they were good !

phil :)

[Bill Tews]

I have friends who have debate with me the evils of Microsoft and everything it stands for, not to mention the "inferior" products it produces.


However, one thing is clear: Microsoft is a great marketing machine, and they do possess a great deal of the market in many of the tools they provide.


With that stated, to get certified through Microsoft does not mean you whole-heartedly support a product. It only shows that you've been AT LEAST exposed to a product well enough to pass the test. If, in fact, you believe that Java is the way to go -- I would think that such an opinion is STRENGTHENED by having Microsoft Certication because it shows that you know all the options available.


Certification is a feather in the cap. It helps out in all cases, unless somebody wants to brand you as a Microsoft-only kind of developer. At very minimum, it forces you to take a look at some technologies you might never need to peek at in your daily grind.


BT

[Steve Bailey]

With all due respect, I used to think that it couldn't hurt too, but I think it *can( at the same time, with regards to the most valuable commodity: time.


If you're studying a lot of that in-depth Windows architecture that would be of value only on a MS test, and not of any use in writing MFC db apps, that time studying for MCSD could have been spent actually writing an app.


Keep in mind, I'm talking about someone looking for a programmer position.


Maybe this question should be presented in the context of a survey:


If you were a hiring manager, would you favor an applicant who walked into your office with sample code, and a decent-looking winsock MFC app that he wrote,.over someone who had an MCSD certification?

I know, i know, why not do both.. again, I'm stating this from the standpoint of someone who had 3 or 4 months to prepare for a job interview.

How would that 3 or 4 months be better spent.?


Keep in mind that there are many web sites out there giving out brain dumps to answers on the Certification tests. An app that was actually written by an applicant can't go through shortcuts.


One last thing: I went through the MCSE process, so I'm not against MS certification. I just decided that programming is more me, and with this type of job, getting experience/degree is favorable to MCSD.


I'm not booing the idea of MCSD -- I just like to think practical about what would score more points with employers.

[Bill Tews]

Hi Steve (and everybody else!):


I can't disagree with anything you said! No certification can REPLACE good experience and hands-on skill. Even if you can "talk the talk", nobody should pretend to be able to "walk the walk." Many consultants have found their way out the door based on that thought.


While we'd all love to believe the world is a basically honest place, I'd say that code can also be copied just like answers can be memorized from the various braindump sites. So many books have source code, and this web site itself would be an interesting place to swipe some code and pretend it's yours during an interview. However, I also like to believe that such people will get what they deserve in the long run.


Thus, if somebody is doing their studying -- be it for an exam or writing a class for an interview -- they will benefit nonetheless. From personal experience, I've been using VC++ for about 4 years, but it wasn't until I went after the MCSD that I got exposed to some of the technologies. Much of it just never came up. Now that I have "some" background in those other topics, I can better pick and choose other areas to dig into, based on my opinions of what my next assignments will be.


So, I'm not disagreeing with you -- but I still believe that certification has its place. If you have the rest of your ducks in a row, certification (I believe) will not penalize you.


Am interested in further thoughts!


Bill

[Steve Bailey]

Yes, I know what you mean about gaining a better view of Microsoft technologies, through studying for Certification. That's a really good point.


As far as copied code, you're definitely right. An interviewer will not know the difference if he just wants to glance at it.

But I don't think anyone would seriously bring in code he didn't write, to an interview, and form a false impression on the employer's mind that you can write the code. What happens when you have to start actually writing on their payroll?


And this is aside from the risk of having the employer ask you specific questions on the code, including what change in the program's behavior would occur if you removed this, or that module.


Of course this also applies to MCSD, to be fair. Most people would not be foolish enough to cheat their way through certification, because when it comes time to deliver the knowledge on the job, they have to come through.


But I understand your most recent point! By having exposure to what's behind the technology, and what drives what behind the curtain, you're better able to know how to best implement a project from the boss. And they know that of course.

[Mircho]

What I can add to this discussion is that you miss the point Mr.Doherty!

This example of yours is ambiguous!!!

First - people that *are in* or *went to* colledge are kind of people that have shown interest in : increasing their level of knowledge, meeting interesting people and exchange knowledge, spend their parents money etc. (do you feel disturbed?!?)

And thus compareing people that had the opportunity to spend 4+ years in a place full of people with IQ above the average you surely will have quite higher knowledge in this group. So I don't agree with your example.

But I 've seen people that from theit 10th year are spending hours in fron of the computer (starting with that apple ][), and some of those people find it senseless to go to colledge, others don't have the monev, others the time to go to classes (because they work, and do it quite well !!!!)

[Paul Doherty]

You're agreeing with me then, that there *would* be a statistically significant difference in the abilities and knowledged displayed by degreed versus non-degreed individuals. I never hypothsized as to *why* this difference would exist; I merely stated that it *would* exist. Now whether being "rich" has anything to do with it is not a valid basis for measurement of intelligence, as you seem to claim that by merely "rubbing shoulders" with people of higher-than-average IQs will thereby grant you the same. I agree that the people in, or having completed a degree arfe people who are interested in increasing their level of knowledge (that's a tenet of my argument in fact - that being the holder of a degree in and of itself says something about the individual's commitment and dedication (not to mention their intellect)). The part of your statement I *do* disagree with is the part about how some people chose not to go due to financial constraints. This is not a valid "excuse" (if there needs to be one) for not achieiving a degree. Why do you assume everyo9ne who attends has wealthy parents who can send them through? I didn't, and worked my entire way through, including my teaching certification post-graduate work. I did it through working 25-32 hours a week, and with grants and GSL (Guaranteed Student Loans). Anyone with the desire (and the admission scores :-) *can* go to a University if they really want to. I accept that there are no excuses, only choices. There are benefits and sacrifice both ways, and for me the choice of investing in myself was the obvious one. I agree there are many people who are excellent in our field who have learned the vast majority of their IT knowledge from self-study, but if that's been their only experiences they are a fish out of water in all other areas of endeavor and woe unto them if they need to a) learn a skill outside of IT, b) learn or intelligently discuss/use information from another field of study, or c) interact with other human beings (just kidding on this one - but sometimes true wouldn't you agree? :-) There is no substitute for formally-approached education to aid in assimilation of knowledge and skills IMHO, and only those who want such a narrow focus as the foundation of the rest of their working years would allow themselves to miss out on the opportunity. This all goes back to my primary beef that if IT as an industry continues to allow the mayhem that exists today with employees garnered based only on skillsets (with no credentials coming into play) we'll have no one to blame but ourselves for not acting and creating a vendor-unspecific body to certify people to practice the profession. The lack of such a body that other professions (physicians, nurses, ambulance EMTs, lawyers, accountants) enjoy will lead to a watering-down of the IT pool. We need to set the bar higher and ensure the legitimacy of those entering the field (weeding out the pretenders and "wanna-bes") for our own sake. One way to do that is to maintain some minimum standards (degrees/certs?) for people to practice IT-specific disciplines and have them enforced by some governing body.


Sincerely,

Paul Doherty

A.A.Sc, B.A.Sc, CNA(3 & 4), CNE(4), MCP+Internet, MCSE, Teacher certified (Texas Secondary (7th-12th)) in Psychology and Computer Science

[Jeff Kohn]

Your assumption that anyone interested in learning will get a college degree is just that, an assumption. Just because someone has 'learned the vast majority of their IT knowledge from self-study' does not mean that they are ignorant or incompetent in all other areas. An intelligent person who wants to learn can certainly do so outside of a college classroom. Problem-solving and communication skills can be learned elsewhere also (and to some extent are natural-born skills).


I have nothing against classes or school in general. If there is a class covering a specific topic or technology that I'm interested in, I'll take it. My problem is with a 4-year curriculum that follows somebody else's opinion of what I need to learn. I prefer to think for myself and make my own decisions.


I agree with you that there are some sorry excuses for programmers out there watering down the IT pool; the sad thing is how many of these incompetent people have degrees. Maybe some type of IT Bar exam requirement for certification would be a good idea; I’m quite confident that I would have no trouble passing it.


You obviously think that your education was a worthwhile investment, and that's great. After seeing that you teach or at least have been interested in teaching, I also understand your bias a little more. But that doesn’t change the fact that there are plenty of competent, well-rounded, knowledgeable people who do not have four-year degrees.


Happy Holidays,


Jeff

[Denis Dagenais]

Their seems to be two camps for each point of view, everybody can benefit from either going to "College/ University" or to training institute. For both these choices, there are pros and cons, for both, an individual can choose to memorise or choose to learn and understand. The latter is reinforced with QUALITY experience.


Thus my point is : Whichever path one chooses (formal or training inst.) understanding the what is at hand should be a priority, and with time, experience continues to add knowledge.


This combination is what I look for when I am interviewing candidates (age not an issue).


Increasing your understanding and augmenting one's knowledge is the real sign of Maturity.

[Prof. Dupa]

I think you gays all sux! Get a life. Its part of life and required in the industry. If you do not wish to take it, do nto rank upon it nor talk about it in any negative aspects.


Prof. Dupa

Boston University

[Dan Ramage]

"I think you gays all sux! Get a life. Its part of life and required in the industry.

If you do not wish to take it, do nto rank upon it nor talk about it in any negative aspects."


I think your response is quite unintelligent. It is not part of life, nor is

it a requirement in industry. This is a forum, for DISCUSSION, I presented my

opinion. I will "rank upon it" and/or "talk about it in any negative aspects"

if I so choose.


I am not anti-Microsoft, I am just aggravated with the bugs in their software

I use( mainly Developer Studio). Maybe the bugs are fixed in V6.0, but I can't

justify "upgrading" every 6 months to a year.


Dan Ramage

[Liviu Nicoara]

This subject is for sure very interesting.

So let me choose my words very carefully. :)

Let's talk about computer science, BSCS and MCSD.

Facts (1):

1. College graduation DOES NOT guarantee someone that after 3-4-5 years of study the graduate WILL be a guru (no matter what segment of computer science that person is studying for).

2. College studies DO NOT raise someone's IQ. Definitely.

3. College studies guaranties a minimum level (starting point) of skills in this industry.

4. College diploma shows a persons's level of determination in achieving a goal. Their parents' level of determination in paying the bills also.


Facts (2):

1. MS certification DOES NOT guarantee that someone IS a code guru. Not at all.

2. MS certification DOES NOT raise someone's IQ. For sure.

3. MS certification guaranties a minimum level (starting point) of skills in a PARTICULAR segment of this industry.


Then:

Without continuous struggle for keeping self on top of the tide - learning basically - no matter what skills someone has had at a certain point in time, those skills will be lost eventually. This is true if you have or you have not a college diploma or MS certification or whatever.

Only pure passion for your work can keep you focused on continuously improving your skills.

Both those that hire based on college diplomas and those who don't care about it are right. Depends on the point of view. The former have the minimum guarantee they have chosen the right person. The later gamble, BUT, in some cases they are in advantage.

A lot of people involved in hiring are looking for certified professionals (MS or whatever). This is the politics now in hiring CS professionals and ignoring it would be stupid. This shows us that somehow the college diploma is not enough, or it is better to be augmented by certifications pointing to certain segments of the industry/CS.


Now, almost all of us are jogging in the morning, for keeping ourselves in good shape. But a few only are running the marathon and only one is winning.


Have a good day, all of you.

[Ramon Saenz-Badillos]

I am also dying to find out if MCSD Certification is worth the paper its

printed on. Im just out of college and will consider anything that will

improve getting the job.

the original question is dated 5/98 i hope by now some people have an

opinion about the new 1999 MCSD and its likelly impact.

Thank you.

[Neal Stublen]

As a contractor currently pursuing MCSD certification, my thinking goes something like this:


If a prospective client is looking at my resume and someone else's resume that document fairly similar skills and experience, will the client have a tendency to choose one contractor over the other because one of the individuals has MCSD certification? I have never heard this come up as a requirement from a client, but it can't possibly hurt my chances for employment. Of course, an individual's certification doesn't guarantee superior abilities since many people could gain certification by simply learning how to pass the tests and still lack the ability to apply their knowledge to a specific problem.

[chris]

I've finally been able to get a string to display in my dialog box's

Edit box! To do this I created a refresh routine which I placed globally (not inside a class).

I also created a function inside the class Cbit128Dlg called FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY.


I am now able to pass any string to FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY(&quot;Some string&quot;)

And have it display. Before it didn't display until after several minutes of code executed

Which made it worthless as a status window.


I believe I can use the same type of process to update progress bars.

The process is:

(1) create a function inside the class where I want to use it. This gives me access

to the objects variable and built-in functions like m_EDIT1 and UpdateData

for my edit box -- or m_progress1 in the case of a progress bar.

(2) call the function with a string in the case of the edit box and a value in the case of a progress bar.



Note &quot;bit128&quot; is my program's name (it does 128 bit math).



//A sample call looks like this

FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY (&quot;SPRING IS HERE&quot;);


In my &quot;refresh()&quot; routine what is &quot; !m_bCancel&quot; and what would it do if I didn't comment it out?

How eould you do this?



// I declared the function inside the class CBit128Dlg in the public section

class CBit128Dlg : public CDialog

{

// Construction

public:

CBit128Dlg(CWnd* pParent = NULL); // standard constructor


void FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY(char *s) //Set a string display it and refresh

{ m_EDIT1 = _T(s); // Set my edit variable string

UpdateData(FALSE);// Update the edit box

refresh();// force the update to happen immediately

};


void refresh() // refresh the edit box

{MSG msg = {NULL};

// Process existing messages in the application's message queue.

// When the queue is empty, do clean up and return.

while (::PeekMessage(&amp;msg,NULL,0,0,PM_NOREMOVE))

// while (::PeekMessage(&amp;msg,NULL,0,0,PM_NOREMOVE) &amp;&amp; !m_bCancel) // What';s this?

{if (!AfxGetThread()-&gt;PumpMessage())

{junk++;//return; //What does this do? I set it to nothing for now

};//if

};//while

};//refresh

[Chris]

I've finally been able to get a string to display in my dialog box's

Edit box! To do this I created a refresh routine which I placed globally (not inside a class).

I also created a function inside the class Cbit128Dlg called FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY.


I am now able to pass any string to FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY(&quot;Some string&quot;)

And have it display. Before it didn't display until after several minutes of code executed

Which made it worthless as a status window.


I believe I can use the same type of process to update progress bars.

The process is:

(1) create a function inside the class where I want to use it. This gives me access

to the objects variable and built-in functions like m_EDIT1 and UpdateData

for my edit box -- or m_progress1 in the case of a progress bar.

(2) call the function with a string in the case of the edit box and a value in the case of a progress bar.



Note &quot;bit128&quot; is my program's name (it does 128 bit math).



//A sample call looks like this

FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY (&quot;SPRING IS HERE&quot;);


In my &quot;refresh()&quot; routine what is &quot; !m_bCancel&quot; and what would it do if I didn't comment it out?

How eould you do this?



// I declared the function inside the class CBit128Dlg in the public section

class CBit128Dlg : public CDialog

{

// Construction

public:

CBit128Dlg(CWnd* pParent = NULL); // standard constructor


void FAST_EDIT_BOX_STRING_DISPLAY(char *s) //Set a string display it and refresh

{ m_EDIT1 = _T(s); // Set my edit variable string

UpdateData(FALSE);// Update the edit box

refresh();// force the update to happen immediately

};


void refresh() // refresh the edit box

{MSG msg = {NULL};

// Process existing messages in the application's message queue.

// When the queue is empty, do clean up and return.

while (::PeekMessage(&amp;msg,NULL,0,0,PM_NOREMOVE))

// while (::PeekMessage(&amp;msg,NULL,0,0,PM_NOREMOVE) &amp;&amp; !m_bCancel) // What';s this?

{if (!AfxGetThread()-&gt;PumpMessage())

{junk++;//return; //What does this do? I set it to nothing for now

};//if

};//while

};//refresh

[Ramon Saenz-Badillos]

Thank you for your insight. The consensus seems to be one of "why not?" get

mcsd certified rather than "why?", i guess it cant hurt.

[svendl]

You took the words out of my mouth

[abraCadaver]

Microsoft doesn't make significant money off of the certifiaction tests ($100/test? come on). I see it more as a big marketing machine. I took the WinArch I and VB5cce exams.

WinArch asked a lot of questions such as "which technology is best suited for doing ___?" Of course, you're dying to mark "none of the above" on most answers, but then that would just be
wrong (http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=3714f389-03702e40) So, it's a chance for MS to create a nation of MS brainwashed consultants, who will hopefully go with the solution they "know" when the time comes.

VB? Studied for a week and passed it, but I would never bill myself as a knowledgable VB programmer (for several reasons :) Unless, that is, I had some experience on a large project, which is my entire point.

Personally, if there's two candidates with identical experience, and one has certification, I'd choose the one with the broadest industry knowledge. Care to guess who that typically is...?

--Steve

[dineshsv]

It should not be the measurment.

[dineshsv]

It should not be the only measurment.

[yudiannlu]

The certification is a Microsoft conspiracy scheme. It is control and power issue. Because MS has the power, and want to control the market and cash flow. The best way is control all of the software developer, one of powns in the game, which only thing can do is go foreward and killed or reach to end (became a member of MS).
It is sad, the whole world just have one of thing, one kind of beauty, one kind of car, one kind of programming tool and, eventually, one kind of mine.
In Taiwan, for example, government want control all of the young and untamed mind, so there are several big, and serious "entrance exam" for high school, colledge. So most of teens trained as one kind of mind, "universal, and homogenous brain" .

Maybe the certificate will bring some good salary, but you just one kind of MS brain. And just like me and sad ....

[dzitam]

Bill Gates, Ross Peroe, 9 out of every 10 billionares, no degree.
I belive a degree is great for showing that you can do it like everyone else.
I for one am only interested in the one that can think for himself.
What it really takes to get though college is the ablity to think like a clone.

[acrown]

Since this thread (MS Certification, diploma, etc) is really dealing with the issue of how to know that a candidate for a position is qualified and will perform up to your expectations...the real issue is interview skills. I have found it very easy to determine a persons qualifications by asking clear precise unambiguous questions. For example
BAD Questions
-------------
1) Have you ever programmed in VB?
2) Do you know how to do xyz?

GOOD Questions
--------------
1) Whats is the name of the MFC class that manages strings (OK, too easy but a nice ice breaker)
2) Tell me what does this statement do
int a = b ? c : d;
3) What are the methods that IUnknown has and what do they do?

After asking these types of questions it will become clear very quickly if the candidate knows his/her stuff. I never ask unfair questions. If the candidate does not know X I do not ask questions about X. An interview is not a social event. Some candidates get offended that I ask very pointed questions but I find this is a efficient use of my time and theirs.

[Angel Lopez]

Real programmers can be born, or CAN BE MADE.... but University or an MS Exam is not a tool to become a human being in a real programmer....


Angel "Java" Lopez
ajlopez@ajlopez.com

[Landshark]

You are so incredibly right-on about this. I'm still in college right now, however I have also been working in the industry. Seeing some of the people get hired parellel to me really makes me wonder what these schools crank out and why people hire them. One of the 'fellow-employees' I saw get inspired the employer because he was working towards his masters. He turned out to be a horrific failure.

Many of the students I have classes with are lemmings. There is an abundant amount of copying that goes on around as well. At the risk of sounding like a racist, I will only say it has been my experience that it is mainly restricted to certain ethnic groups.

-dave

[Coder]

I took the betas for both new VC 6 tests and just got the results a couple of days ago. I have to say I think they must be easier than the old MFC test (which I also passed on the first try).

My reason is that I did almost no specific preparation for any of these tests. However, I had lots of real world experience with the MFC material at the time I took the test, and it felt very easy to me. The VC 6 material, however, was largely stuff I had no experience with at the time - tons of COM and ATL questions. So those tests were difficult for me, and I would not have been surprised to have failed both. It turns out the passing scores were 534 and 540 for desktop and distributed. Again, this was for the beta - I also did the 70-100 'solution architectures' beta and the passing score for the live exam is almost 50 points higher than its beta version. But that still is the lowest requirement I've seen on any exam. I passed pretty easily - 140 points was my closest margin.

If you'll pardon the immodesty, I think I am also a highly experienced and productive programmer and definitely have a knack for standardized type tests like these MCSD ones. Maybe that validates the tests somewhat. Despite my inexperience with ATL, I know I could put it to good use if the need arose. I jumped right in to a lead MFC programming position a couple of years ago with no prior MFC experience and it's worked out very well, so I don't think learning some new libraries and syntax will ever be a big problem for me.

I had thought the MFC test was a decent indicator of having practical experience and some familiarity with MFC, but I'm not sure what to think of the VC6 tests. When I took them, I had done a relatively small amount of reading about COM and ATL and had done only a trivial amount of COM work (fiddling around with the Windows 95 shell interface at home). If someone had asked me for help with COM or ATL I would have said they probably knew more about it than me and told them to look elsewhere. According to my new resume acronym, I would have been mistaken.

While I'm sure I'll put the acronyms on my resume the next time I use it, that's probably the only place I'll ever use them. What is with people who list them all at the end of every email and newsgroup message? If you're so smart, why are you so insecure? You'd think they were members of MENSA.

I'd be curious to hear what anyone with some real experience with this stuff thinks of the tests. I've been reading a lot more about COM/ATL, but still haven't done a lick of real work with either.

[alain]

How do you look at what the business world wants? By reading job ads? Those are mostly written by HR people who often don't have a clue about technical skills. That ends up with a job ad like one I saw from a big company back in 1991, asking for 15+ years of experience with C++, while
the language was created around 1985...

[O Wilson]

Here's a case where a joke has turned into an industry. MSCE training schools are popping up all over, and you have to 'pop' $1500 to attend, and moreover you still have to pay for the exams. Also very likely in the future, you'll be required to re-certify in order to stay current with the latest release of softwares.

Talk about a 'brave new world order'!!

[jtwine]

&gt; As someone else pointed out it says a lot to me when someone has
&gt; not invested themselves into their profession by attaining these
&gt; credentials. It says a lot about the personality of the individual
&gt; that they are focused and determined if they have obtained these
&gt; achievements.

And it says a lot to others that one might be more concerned with a piece of paper, rather than real-world experience.

Realize that some of us, who were into computers before we knew that there was money in it, spent our elementary through high school years programming, interning, and doing real-world development. After that, in college, pointers were old hat; the classic 8-queens problem was no sweat (which, BTW, I have yet to encounter in the "real world").

I put up with college (and worked as a programmer during that time, both for the college, and professionally during the summer) until my third year. At that point, I knew that there was no more that I could gain by being there, and left. There is only so much that you can learn from instructors/professors that *know* C++, but do not *use* C++. (But hey! Thay have the certificate, remember?)

It sounds great to talk trash about being "focused and determined", however, one day you are going to be on a project that has a bad architecture and/or design, and is using kludge after kludge of trivial band-aid code trying to fit 10 pounds of sh*t into a 5 pound bag, all under a crazy deadline.

Your expertise tells you that it should be redesigned, that this is not the right way to do it. The leaders of the project do not want to change it. What do you do? Stay "focused and determined", spinning your wheels the entire time? No. You end up going where your skills can be best applied.

For me, college was where my skills were not being best applied.

Any regrets? Nope. I currently have a better position that those that I would have graduated with, and have more respect and responsibility. And I am tired of seeing people in interviews (with degrees) that can write an elevator simulation and a simple parser, but cannot understand simple client-server systems.

How some people get above the associate level is beyond me.

Just wanted to rant a little...

Peace!

-=- James.