is VC++ out ?

[globi]

Hello,
I am pretty much concerned about the future of Visual C++. Everyone is talking about VB.NET, but almost no one talks about VC.NET
What is all this about ?
I used to do Visual Basic years ago and there I was told to do Visual C++ as it is far more advanced and you simply can do more with it.
So what is the deal ?

Thank you,

Andy

[Brad Jones]

Visual C++.NET is a part of Visual Studio.NET. Visual Studio.NET Beta 2 was just released to the public last week.

Visual C++ is the only language (that I am aware of) that will continue to be able to compile to native Windows. All the other programming languages within the VS.NET IDE will compile to the .NET runtime. This means VC++.NET will continue to be the tool to use for gaining the most power and fastest speeds on Windows.

While languages such as Visual Basic.NET are being totally re-written, VC++.NET is being enhanced. It will continue to do what it has always done, plus it will be able to work with ATL Server, managed extensions, and more.

Brad!

[globi]

Thank you Brad.
So you think that Visual C++ will still be more powerful than Visual Basic. I think this too, but I still have the feeling that Microsoft wants to push their new Visual Basic.NET to the top of all programming languages they provide.
I hope that this will not be the case.
Anyways,
thanks for the reply

Andy

[Brad Jones]

I would say that it seems to me that Microsoft's objective is to make the programming language irrelevant. A programming language is just a syntax for accomplsihing a task, just as English or French are languages for communicating. Which is better, English or French? Neither? Both? Doesn't matter, they are both languages that can be used to communicate. Ultimately, I don't think Microsoft cares which langauges you use. They do want you using Visual Studio (with any language plug in) as well as .NET.

Microsoft does give more emphasis to Visual Basic.Net, as should be expected. There are at least four times as many Visual Basic developers as Visual C++ developers (someone from MS can chime in with an actual number, but that should be close, if not low). With a market of around 8 million VB developers verses 1 to 2 million VC++ developers, you should expect Microsoft to give a bigger focus to their bigger market. It's smart business sense.

Brad!

(8 million is the number MS through out at Tech Ed for VB developers. I know that VC++ developers was around 1.2 million a few years ago, and I doubt it has doubled since).

[ega]

Brad:
I do not understand one thing. Applications such as EXPLORER, NETSCAPE, ORACLE and may be WINDOWS itself and others were all developed in C/C++. So it means C++ is a very "silent" powerful and invisible good code languaje!!

[Clearcode]

I think that MFC (Microsoft Foundation Classes) is on the wane. Of course, if .NET common language runtime becomes cross platform then C++.Net will be the loser there as unmanaged code (C++ Native executable format) will not be portable.

...but that would mean someone developing a CLR for different platforms. Pretty unlikely...or is it?

-------------------------------------------------
Ex. Datis: Duncan Jones
Merrion Computing Ltd
http://www.merrioncomputing.com

[Stefan Holmberg]

>...but that would mean someone developing a CLR for different platforms. Pretty unlikely...or is it?

It is happening...
http://www.ximian.com/tech/mono-index.php3

[Stefan Holmberg]

I have a hard time believing performance of .NET applications will be ok. There will always be a need for navive compiled code.

>This means VC++.NET will continue to be the tool to use for gaining the most power and fastest speeds on Windows

I would correct that and say Yes amongst MS tools "VC++.NET will continue to be the tool to use for gaining the most power and fastest speeds on Windows". I am already starting to look at C++ builder etc since if I get the feeling MS is stopping to develop/enhance the C++ compiler ( and I have somewhere read Don Box saying MS already have ) then I will turn to another vendor. I bet many other will as well...

If this will happen I surely hope MS have enough decency to license MFC/ATL ( or even GPL it ) to other vendors.

[Brad Jones]

Don't forget that .NET code (IL) is compiled (JIT) to native code on the CLR. This means that after the first execution of a module on the runtime, you are using native code. Because of this, you should end up with the ability to get speeds near to native C++.

[Stefan Holmberg]

Yes, the code will execute at the same speed as if you had written the EXACT same code in C++.
But often you don't, you tend to write leaner code with a low level language.
I mean, ever tried to use a collection in VB?
The VB runtime is compiled to machine code, still it executes many many times slower than
when using C++ SafeArray code, not even to talk about the case when you
know 'This collection is never to be exported to any other programming language, I can safely use STL'

So point is not the JIT stuff, more the kind of overhead the CLR brings in.
To me it feels like I am loosing the 'sometimes I know better than the
system/compiler, therefore I can do it this way'-feeling which has saved me a
lot of times when optimizing code executing too slow and/or working with very large datastructures.

I do know MS is targetting the masses ( the ones who forget to AddRef/Release, etc - and
believe me I do these kind of mistakes myself many many times ).
Maybe it is me - getting older - and therefore little afraid of changes, but I'm not
ashamed to say I am a little afraid my expertise - all the hours I have spent to become a
good C++ programmer - will be of no/little use.

[SrgJan]

Hi,
exactly!!!! you got it!! :)
OS'es will never be written in .Net.
In my oppinion the whole .Net is a big ballon developed for those people who are unable to take care of their pointers etc (look at the NG's and you know what I mean).
One example: In one NG a guy posted that he hasn't developped apps in years. But he's sure that with the help of .NET he'll easily write a huuge management system (Whatever this is lol).

All right maybe a bit too hard :).
I guess C# has a few advantages but also lots of disadvantages. I would say that a better and more handy user interface of VC++ would've lead into faster and better program development than creating a completely new development framework.

The fact that you have to implement the IUnknown Interface yourself in your COM objects shows that COM isn't object oriented in "my" oppinion. Why did MS not improve the COM technology??? In my eyes of view MS created the .NET framework to bind us Developers to their COM technology. I'll look up the MS page where one of the MS officials said that every C# class is a COM object in real...

I ordered the NET Beta2 and will take a closer look at it. But one's for sure I don't want to get bound to MS technologies extensions etc.

This mail just contains my personal view of the .Net framework and isn't meant to treat other people :).

Hope to hear from you soon
Sincerely,
Jan

[mnharshavardhan]

All through my programming life I remembered one
motto & still believe it : REAL programmer's don't
program in Basic (any kind!) :)

[RickCrone]

If
{
Don't forget that .NET code (IL) is compiled (JIT) to native code on the CLR. This means that after the first execution of a module on the runtime, you are using native code. Because of this, you should end up with the ability to get speeds near to native C++.
}
Where is this executable (native code) stored? I thought the JIT would happen each time the application ran.








Rick Crone